Thread: Held up on ы and й

Rosa Anna, even though the name of the character И краткое translates as "short i", the sound it makes is not a short i any more than the /y/ in "boy" is. I guess if you'd call the y in boy a "short i", then you can call Й a short i. But that is not the accepted terminology. Й is not a vowel.

Originally Posted by fantom605

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

That's it--very much (insert russian equivalent here ) спасибо!!!!!

большой спасибо
-Fantom

ps- I see the й transliterated as j in some translators, but I've never seen my Russian friends use it... How is it transliterated most of the time? y? i?

When the target language is English, it is usually transliterated as y or i.
J is used for languages where J = English y, like German, the Slavic languages with use Latin alphabet.


Transliterations vary depending on the target language:
Где ты живёшь?
English - Gde ty zhivyosh'?
German - Gde ty zhivjosch'
Czech - Gdě ty živjoš' (maybe živ'oš' even)

Originally Posted by TATY

I see what you mean, but ы isn't a u.

I see that now. The sound I was getting on the audio of just the letter sounds very much to me like an "EU" I was picking out the man's breath at the end as a U I think. But in a program I downloaded from Declan (and other places where full words are "hearable" the spoken words sound more "like a small i or e" it it'll work itself out. I see what you mean Chaika about my relating a "consonant" to a vowel.

Originally Posted by ramyfishler

the point is that ы goes with hard consonants while и goes with soft ones.
basicly. in hard consonants the back of the tongue goes down and in soft ones it goes up. as in pronouncing the vowel ee.
now if you try to pronounce a hard consonant and the vowel и together. you get ы. and you a bit like you've been hit in the belly.
for example try saing "бa" (hard, back of the tongue down) and then keep your mouth shaped the same and try to pronounce би what you get is бы.

hit in the belly....if that's what it takes...

Originally Posted by fantom605

большой спасибо
-Fantom

ps- I see the й transliterated as j in some translators, but I've never seen my Russian friends use it... How is it transliterated most of the time? y? i?

thanks

Originally Posted by chaika

Rosa Anna, even though the name of the character И краткое translates as "short i", the sound it makes is not a short i any more than the /y/ in "boy" is. I guess if you'd call the y in boy a "short i", then you can call Й a short i. But that is not the accepted terminology. Й is not a vowel.

ah.

I will try listening now to an й\и\ы soundtrack.
Everything else here is very especially helpful, especially everything taken together. Thank you for working with me on this as you did.

I found my й key. Like an idiot who never uses the "q" key that is where ...

Gets that "I'm on the verge of a breakthough now frustrations hit mahc 10" misty eyed girl look.

God I love Russian.

Originally Posted by chaika

Й is not a vowel.

But. But. But. Both my book (which really contradicts itself) and readwrite (it's full of bugs so who knows) program say it is a "soft vowel". Though... I am willing to believe it is a consanant..at least for a while

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

Originally Posted by chaika

Й is not a vowel.

But. But. But. Both my book (which really contradicts itself) and readwrite (it's full of bugs so who knows) program say it is a "soft vowel". Though... I am willing to believe it is a consanant..at least for a while

й is basically the same as English Y, in words like Yam, boy, guy, may, yes. Y in English is sometimes known as a semi-vowel, but officially it is a consonant.

this may be the first time I agree with taty.

Originally Posted by chaika

this may be the first time I agree with taty.

Why? Do you two fight?

Well, ok, there is a good explaination on a page link the manager offered up on the technical section that I haven't been able to find through the many masterrussian links yet-but I got it through the link -hoorah. It says something to the effect of (not exact wording), make the sound i as in mit, then make the...no no no that is not it. It says place your tounge inbetween the sound of i as in mit and u as in sugar and you come up with ы. I don't "actually remember" the sound of English y, and it was probably the hardest letter I learned when a kid. I know what it sounds like when it is connected to a word but not by itself. I could look it up, and probably will, maybe, but I am so very tired of the English Language-IN GENERAL. and might prefer surgery to looking up the meaning of Y. The sound I got from the link is matching the sound from the audio. Giving it I's and Y's won't help-though I appreciate the effort!~ The link says there is not an English equivalent. I'm ok with that. I actually like the sound of ы.
Thanks Guys~and Gals
Rosa Anna

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

Originally Posted by chaika

this may be the first time I agree with taty.

Why? Do you two fight?

Well, ok, there is a good explaination on a page link the manager offered up on the technical section that I haven't been able to find through the many masterrussian links yet-but I got it through the link -hoorah. It says something to the effect of (not exact wording), make the sound i as in mit, then make the...no no no that is not it. It says place your tounge inbetween the sound of i as in mit and u as in sugar and you come up with ы. I don't "actually remember" the sound of English y, and it was probably the hardest letter I learned when a kid. I know what it sounds like when it is connected to a word but not by itself. I could look it up, and probably will, maybe, but I am so very tired of the English Language-IN GENERAL. and might prefer surgery to looking up the meaning of Y. The sound I got from the link is matching the sound from the audio. Giving it I's and Y's won't help-though I appreciate the effort!~ The link says there is not an English equivalent. I'm ok with that. I actually like the sound of ы.
Thanks Guys~and Gals
Rosa Anna

If you look at the definition of a vowel, the letter й doesn't fir the definition, therefore isn't a vowel.
The break down of the Russian alphabet is:

Ten vowels*
21 consonants (or 20 if you count Е and Ё as one letter)
2 znaks

Я Е Ю Ё are technically not vowels though, since they represent two sounds: й + а = я. They do contain vowel sounds though.
й + э = е
й + у = ю
й + о = ё

Originally Posted by TATY

If you look at the definition of a vowel, the letter й doesn't fir the definition, therefore isn't a vowel.

By whose definition though? English or Russian. I can see how by by the English definition of a vowel the й would be a vowel. Because english definition of a vowel is (for one example): "A speech sound, such as...( (e) or (a)", created by the relatively free passage of breath through the larynx and oral cavity, usually forming the most prominent and central sound of a syllable.
A letter, such as a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y in the English alphabet, that represents a vowel (dictionary.com)" But, Russia makes the rules for it's own language-and to learn that I need to follow those rules to the highest quality I am able. I imagine has it's own set of rules for characters, language, ect...not based upon English stuff.
In fact if I followed the above description for a vowel (English style) than й would be a vowel and ю\е\я\ё would not because the (yoo-ye-yah-yo) sound interrupts the passage of free flowing air through the larnx.....

Edit: Still not sure about that "prominent and central stuff"-- but even at a couple of hours a day I have a long way to go.

I guess I'm still confused as to why you would classify й as a consanant when Russian instruction (here) and in my book for example says that Й is grouped in the concept in Russian of what is most easily understood in American as vowel.

Help? I'm not trying to be pesky, I'm just trying to understand what your saying. й is not a Russian vowel because English definition of vowel says it can't be a vowel by English rules? I guess I need to search around a bit to see what Russian concept is this letter, and what Russian rules govern it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with English language; it's just trying to be understood by English people-or Chinese, or Franks (whatever). Russian instruction says I am to think of this set of letters in a group, "let's call it vowel". Russian instruction says I am to think of those other letters in a group, "lets call it consonant". Okies...sounds good to me. Shrug.

*Edit: Taty, are you saying that Russian character й does not meet the rules of the group that it is governed by?"

oh gee....nuther long study night If I'm lucky enough to get the work I brought home finished.

The reason for the "and sometimes y" is words like

my, thy, spy. That is, the thinking goes that the letter Y must be a vowel because we don't have vowelless words in English, as they do in Czech, for example, where Strč prst skrz krk is a (humorous tho it may be, more or less) perfectly normal utterance. But Y really isn't a vowel.

The word spelled my really consists of three sounds, /m/, /a/ as in aha!, and /j/. Phonemically we write it /m

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

Originally Posted by TATY

If you look at the definition of a vowel, the letter й doesn't fir the definition, therefore isn't a vowel.

By whose definition though? English or Russian. I can see how by by the English definition of a vowel the й would be a vowel. Because english definition of a vowel is (for one example): "A speech sound, such as...( (e) or (a)", created by the relatively free passage of breath through the larynx and oral cavity, usually forming the most prominent and central sound of a syllable.
A letter, such as a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y in the English alphabet, that represents a vowel (dictionary.com)" But, Russia makes the rules for it's own language-and to learn that I need to follow those rules to the highest quality I am able. I imagine has it's own set of rules for characters, language, ect...not based upon English stuff.
In fact if I followed the above description for a vowel (English style) than й would be a vowel and ю\е\я\ё would not because the (yoo-ye-yah-yo) sound interrupts the passage of free flowing air through the larnx.....

Edit: Still not sure about that "prominent and central stuff"-- but even at a couple of hours a day I have a long way to go.

I guess I'm still confused as to why you would classify й as a consanant when Russian instruction (here) and in my book for example says that Й is grouped in the concept in Russian of what is most easily understood in American as vowel.

Help? I'm not trying to be pesky, I'm just trying to understand what your saying. й is not a Russian vowel because English definition of vowel says it can't be a vowel by English rules? I guess I need to search around a bit to see what Russian concept is this letter, and what Russian rules govern it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with English language; it's just trying to be understood by English people-or Chinese, or Franks (whatever). Russian instruction says I am to think of this set of letters in a group, "let's call it vowel". Russian instruction says I am to think of those other letters in a group, "lets call it consonant". Okies...sounds good to me. Shrug.

*Edit: Taty, are you saying that Russian character й does not meet the rules of the group that it is governed by?"

oh gee....nuther long study night If I'm lucky enough to get the work I brought home finished.

A vowel is not defined in English, or Russian, or French, or Swalhili, a vowel is a vowel in any language*

*sort of. The vowel sound is a vowel sound, although the character it is represented by may denote a different sound in the other language.
E.g., in English Y can have a vowel sound when it is used to replace I. In Czech Y is a vowel in words like Ty (tee). In Russian Й is not a vowel since it always has the English Y sound of yam, yearn, year


You don't understand what a vowel is. So I'll tell you. In phonetics, a vowel is a sound in spoken language that is characterised by an open configuration of the vocal tract, in contrast to consonants, which are characterised by a constriction or closure at one or more points along the vocal tract.

If you say the English vowel sounds (SOUNDS not their names):
say ah, eh, oh, ee, oo,
These are vowel sounds. Your mouth, and throat and stuff is open.
Now say m, n, k. There are closures or partial closing of different parts of the mouth and/or throat.
Now say й. Й is the inital y sounds in yam, you. You should feel the back of your throat raise. This is a constriction of the vocal tract and therefore is not a vowel sound.

Originally Posted by TATY

In Russian Й is not a vowel since it always has the English Y sound of yam, yearn, year


You don't understand what a vowel is. So I'll tell you. In phonetics, a vowel is a sound in spoken language that is characterised by an open configuration of the vocal tract, in contrast to consonants, which are characterised by a constriction or closure at one or more points along the vocal tract.

um Taty? Thanks for writing back. I don't "understand" what a vowel is-This is fact...sort of.
Other: I see no where stating that и or й has "Y" sound. Sorry....
Link? Though I think I may have read where depending on the word it's sound may be affected by other characters in the word.

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

Originally Posted by TATY

In Russian Й is not a vowel since it always has the English Y sound of yam, yearn, year


You don't understand what a vowel is. So I'll tell you. In phonetics, a vowel is a sound in spoken language that is characterised by an open configuration of the vocal tract, in contrast to consonants, which are characterised by a constriction or closure at one or more points along the vocal tract.

um Taty? Thanks for writing back. I don't "understand" what a vowel is-This is fact...sort of.
Other: I see no where stating that и or й has "Y" sound. Sorry....
Link? Though I think I may have read where depending on the word it's sound may be affected by other characters in the word.

Й has a y sound.

й is y in may

"Note that consonant й (also called semivowel) occurs only in combinations with vowels:
a) й + vowel: йод(iodine), йога(yoga);
b) vowel + й: мой(my), чай(tea), синий(blue), белый(white)."

Й is always soft.
The hard variant of Й (absent in Russian) would be like Ukrainian Г

I

Actually, my book translates it as an "i", and y in English is only sometimes a vowel. I'm still trying to find a solid answer to the question and a clear source. I don't care either way, just the facts please..

Thanks all-especially for the help with the sound ы. I am going to leave this topic now as it is taking me way

Originally Posted by Rosa Anna

Actually, my book translates it as an "i", and y in English is only sometimes a vowel. I'm still trying to find a solid answer to the question and a clear source. I don't care either way, just the facts please..

Fact 1. = A vowel is a sound produced with a free flow of air through an unconstricted and open vocal tract.
Fact 2. = To pronounce Й the back of the tongue raises to the soft palate.
Fact 3. = This is obviously a constriction of the vocal tract.
Fact 4. = Therefore Й is not a vowel.

taty,

good, but what's the deal with R L M N

They don't fit somehow?

Originally Posted by chaika

taty,

good, but what's the deal with R L M N

They don't fit somehow?

The vocal tract is NOT nconstricted and open in their case.

Originally Posted by chaika

taty,

good, but what's the deal with R L M N

They don't fit somehow?

To say the r in rat, really, wrong, firstly the mouth starts CLOSED, as does M.
N involves the tip of the tongue.
The vocal tract is from the throat to the lips I believe.

The one that people often mention in English H, but to pronounce this the back of the troat is slightly closed, and is therefore a consonant.