Thread: Разные мысли и соображения вокруг событий в Украине

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I heard the story about drugs and snipers but this is the first time I've seen proof from the Ministry of Health and the WHO.

There's no proof, just statistics about hospitalization (without any details), though, according to author, somehow it proves something.
The every aspect of the story is too ridiculous for anyone who have slightest idea about drugs and medicine: doctors diagnose drug addiction to unknown drug, which causes harsh withdrawal after few days of use, no one got sample? ROFL

Не могу поверить, что специально всех на майдане травят наркотиками. Просто не укладывается в голове.
Но вот, например, первое, что нагуглилось:

" ..Еще две недели назад крымчан пугали тем, что попавших на Майдан людей за пару суток превращают в наркоманов. Причем информация всегда была получена "из первых рук": "двоюродная сестра подруги моего знакомого", "племянник сослуживицы тети соседки" рассказывали практически одно и то же – на Майдане людей массово подсаживают на наркотики, дабы задурманить им мозг. Теперь эти особые наркотики "приехали" в Крым. Точнее, их привезли. Бандеровцы. И хотят подсадить на них крымчан. Именно этим объясняют крымские "власти" и представители "самообороны" возмутившую многих приезжих практику проверять багаж прибывающих в Крым граждан. "Самообороновцы" якобы ищут в чемоданах шприцы с таинственным наркотиком. Особенно рьяно "наркодиллеров" ищут среди киевлян. Участились случаи, когда представители "самообороны Крыма" (часть из которых не скрывает, что являются гражданами России) врывались в квартиры к крымчанам, к которым в гости приехали родственники. Как рассказывают очевидцы, "самооборона" устраивает обыски и забирает приезжих на допросы. Иногда новоявленные вооруженные "борцы с наркоманией" развлекаются тем, что пугают людей выстрелами. Правда, о возможных пострадавших информации пока нет. ..."
http://dynamo.kiev.ua/blog/172011.html

Ну, а у нас "жена и знакомая друга". И трижды запостить с красными криками? Значит точно, "на войне как на войне".

В общем очевидно, что вовсю развернулась информационная война, и для победы в ней её организаторы пойдут на всё.

Много раз смотрела тв передачу "Intervention" Watch Intervention Full Episodes & Videos Online - A&E
и насмотрелась на самых различных тяжело больных наркоманов.

Просто интересно, на какой наркотик можно так быстро подсесть и при этом не заметить наркотического эффекта? Ерунда какая-то.

Originally Posted by dtrq

Do people still repost this bullshit?

Originally Posted by Lampada

This is awful.

Why do I feel like I just stepped into a conspiracy theory?

Originally Posted by Paul G.

It already happens. As you maybe know, D. Firtash arrested today at the instance of FBI (almighty FBI couldn't catch him for 8 years, and ooops! what a surprise, this elusive gangster-billionaire was at last arrested; of course, it has nothing to do with Ukrainian events). He's the third largest "oligarch." Also, sons of Yanukovich were freezed out. I don't consider Yanukovich as a good president. He has squandered all. But he was just a protege of some oligarchic forces. So if ordinary people think that they made a revolution, I have to disappoint them: it's not a revolution, it's a coup organized by the armed squads (mainly Nazi) for the interests of third party. If it were a revolution, it had to change political and economical course. But nothing happened and something like that is not even declared. All the "oligarchs" are on their places. One of them even became a mayor, although (just think about that!) he's a citizen of Israel. How is it possible if so-called "revolution" was "against corruption"? I can put tens of such awkward questions. All of these questions just confirm that ordinary people were cheated again. And it looks like this process will never stop.

I didn't know that Firtash was arrested. I didn't even know that the FBI was looking for him so I google it and found this.
Austria arrests Ukraine oligarch Dmitry Firtash at US request - FT.com

It says he was orgainizing a Ukraine festival in London last year. And they didn't try to arrest him there? That's very suspicious. The arrest is an Obvious move to put pressure on Putin.

Originally Posted by dtrq

There's no proof, just statistics about hospitalization (without any details), though, according to author, somehow it proves something.
The every aspect of the story is too ridiculous for anyone who have slightest idea about drugs and medicine: doctors diagnose drug addiction to unknown drug, which causes harsh withdrawal after few days of use, no one got sample? ROFL

I still think it's strange that so many people would be in the hospital but I've never been to a huge demonstration so I don't know how harsh it can be on peoples' health. But it's a good point that no one even got a sample.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Много раз смотрела тв передачу "Intervention" Watch Intervention Full Episodes & Videos Online - A&E
и насмотрелась на самых различных тяжело больных наркоманов.

Просто интересно, на какой наркотик можно так быстро подсесть и при этом не заметить наркотического эффекта? Ерунда какая-то.

That's what I'm thinking now. I've never taken any drugs so I don't know how that feels but I think I would know if I did. Also, if I felt that different then I know I would leave and I wouldn't come back till somebody identified the drug I accidentally took. It's normal to get very concerned when something feels wrong.
About the "addiction" thing, I don't know how long people have to take drugs to get addicted.

My conclusion is that the drug theory still has holes in it and I still haven't seen anything that proves there were snipers. My conclusion could change but only if I see conclusive evidence.

It must have been something not very heavy. Amphetamines of sorts, I think, maybe 'extasy'. Several weeks of everyday's use can form an addiction.

The first article said that "friends in Kharkov reported specific information". And you said that you are 500 km from Kiev. Are you in Kharkov?

No, I am in Russia, Orel, it's about 520 km East-North off Kiev and 380 km North off Kharkov.

That's what I'm thinking now. I've never taken any drugs so I don't know how that feels but I think I would know if I did. Also, if I felt that different then I know I would leave and I wouldn't come back till somebody identified the drug I accidentally took.

Amphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
***
Psychological

Common psychological effects of therapeutic doses can include alertness, apprehension, concentration, decreased sense of fatigue, mood swings (elevated mood or elation and euphoria followed by mild dysphoria), increased initiative, insomnia or wakefulness, self-confidence, and sociability.[24][28] Less common or rare psychological effects that depend on the user's personality and current mental state include anxiety, change in libido, grandiosity, irritability, repetitive or obsessive behaviors, and restlessness.[ref-note 6] When heavily abused, amphetamine psychosis can occur.[13][24][25] Although very rare, this psychosis can also occur at therapeutic doses during long-term therapy as a side effect.[13][24][26] According to the USFDA, "there is no systematic evidence that stimulants cause aggressive behavior or hostility."[24]
...
Dependence, addiction, and withdrawal

Addiction is a serious risk with heavy recreational amphetamine use, but is unlikely to arise from typical medical use.[13][27][28] Tolerance develops rapidly in amphetamine abuse, so periods of extended use require increasing doses of the drug in order to achieve the same effect.[62][63]

A Cochrane Collaboration review on amphetamine and methamphetamine dependence and abuse indicates that the current evidence on effective treatments is extremely limited.[64] The review indicated that fluoxetine[note 8] and imipramine[note 9] have some limited benefits in treating abuse and addiction, but concluded, "no treatment has been demonstrated to be effective for the treatment of amphetamine dependence and abuse."
***

So you are sure that you, a person who has never tried any narcotic in your life, would know that your condition of "alertness, apprehension, concentration, decreased sense of fatigue, mood swings (elevated mood or elation and euphoria followed by mild dysphoria), increased initiative, insomnia or wakefulness, self-confidence, and sociability" is a consequence of a drug intoxication or it's just because of your your susceptibility to the psychological atmosphere of a great mass of people? No, you'll notice that something wrong only when narcotic withdrawal begins.

My conclusion is that the drug theory still has holes in it and I still haven't seen anything that proves there were snipers. My conclusion could change but only if I see conclusive evidence.

So you deny the very existence of the snipers! That's something new! The last known for me move of Maidan defenders was to blame Russia in the snipers' case. They said about a Russian army uniform chevron found in an alleged place of a sniper, a very shaky evidence, but I've never heard before about denying their existence completely. That's fine! Carry on!

But it's a good point that no one even got a sample.

Amphetamine is actually used in medical practice but it is heavily regulated in most countries. So what a sample do you need? A sample of a regulated but still legal medical drug which must be used only by a highly professional medical personnel in very controlled order? Suppose, you found such a drug, how can you be sure it was not misused?

Видимо, сотрудник банка клятый москаль, врет про шприцы.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Amphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...
Dependence, addiction, and withdrawal

Addiction is a serious risk with heavy recreational amphetamine use, but is unlikely to arise from typical medical use.[13][27][28] Tolerance develops rapidly in amphetamine abuse, so periods of extended use require increasing doses of the drug in order to achieve the same effect.[62][63]

Why did you highlighted the line about tolerance? Tolerance means temporal insensitivity to a drug.
You've omitted withdrawal symptoms, winch are nothing like those usually described when talking about "maidan drugs" (amph barely causes physical addiction, only after long period of abuse).

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Amphetamine is actually used in medical practice but it is heavily regulated in most countries. So what a sample do you need? A sample of a regulated but still legal medical drug which must be used only by a highly professional medical personnel in very controlled order? Suppose, you found such a drug, how can you be sure it was not misused?

Sample of tea or food or whatever, or, if doctors diagnosed "drug addiction", there should be traces in blood. There's no generic "drug addiction" and "withdrawal" diagnosis.

You've omitted withdrawal symptoms, winch are nothing like those usually described when talking about "maidan drugs" (amph barely causes physical addiction, only after long period of abuse).

But methamphetamine does cause physical addiction: Methamphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
***
In low doses, methamphetamine can cause an elevated mood and increase alertness, concentration, and energy in fatigued individuals. At higher doses, it can induce psychosis, rhabdomyolysis and cerebral hemorrhage. Methamphetamine is known to have a high potential for abuse and addiction. Recreational use of methamphetamine may result in psychosis or lead to post-withdrawal syndrome, a withdrawal syndrome that can persist for months beyond the typical withdrawal period. Unlike amphetamine and cocaine, methamphetamine is neurotoxic to humans, damaging both dopamine and serotonin neurons in the CNS. Entirely opposite to the long-term use of amphetamine, there is evidence that methamphetamine causes brain damage from long-term use in humans; this damage includes adverse changes in brain structure and function, such as reductions in gray matter volume in several brain regions and adverse changes in markers of metabolic integrity.
***
You say that amphetamine has: "withdrawal symptoms, winch are nothing like those usually described when talking about "maidan drugs", but I never described those symptoms, so you are arguing with your own assertion which has no relation to my words.
In informational war all means are good?

Ну, а у нас "жена и знакомая друга". И трижды запостить с красными криками? Значит точно, "на войне как на войне".
В общем очевидно, что вовсю развернулась информационная война, и для победы в ней её организаторы пойдут на всё.

Should I have uploaded a scan of her passport or what?
About the informational war, you probably know better. I'm not a soldier of a regular army in this war, are you?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

My conclusion is that the drug theory still has holes in it and I still haven't seen anything that proves there were snipers. My conclusion could change but only if I see conclusive evidence.

Both "theories" (as you called them) are proved by the facts. The doctors noted that a lot of the patients (injured on the "maidan") have weird reactions which looked like they were on drugs or at least felt the consequences of that. I don't think that everybody there used drugs. But I have a reason to believe that there were three groups of people who used it:
a) The real drug addicts who had been using drugs long before the protest. These people are very cheap and can do anything for little money or even for a drug dose. I guess there were a lot of them, because they are asocial and don't appreciate life. Ideal people for protests. Therefore, we have to see lots of evidences. And we have it.
b) Those protesters who got some light drugs with food or drinks, just for supporting their spirit in an energetic (or even agressive) state. I don't think these drugs could cause serious consequences. I guess it's something like an intense antidepressant. You feel like an inspired revolutionist, but in fact it's just some meds.
c) Special drugs, only for the armed groups of the protesters. I assume, this type of drugs is something like the preparations for the US special forces. Just for instant effect (no pain etc). I'm not 100% sure, though.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

No, I am in Russia, Orel, it's about 520 km East-North off Kiev and 380 km North off Kharkov.

In Tula oblast? That's only about 240 km from Ukraine. I'm in Norman, Oklahoma USA (a small city about 3 times as big as Orel). And I'm 9,205 km from Kiev. It's easier for you to know what's happening in Ukraine than it is for me.
Btw, I very much appreciate anything I can learn from people in Ukraine and Russia.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Amphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
***
Psychological

Common psychological effects of therapeutic doses can include alertness, apprehension, concentration, decreased sense of fatigue, mood swings (elevated mood or elation and euphoria followed by mild dysphoria), increased initiative, insomnia or wakefulness, self-confidence, and sociability.[24][28] Less common or rare psychological effects that depend on the user's personality and current mental state include anxiety, change in libido, grandiosity, irritability, repetitive or obsessive behaviors, and restlessness.[ref-note 6] When heavily abused, amphetamine psychosis can occur.[13][24][25] Although very rare, this psychosis can also occur at therapeutic doses during long-term therapy as a side effect.[13][24][26] According to the USFDA, "there is no systematic evidence that stimulants cause aggressive behavior or hostility."[24]
...
Dependence, addiction, and withdrawal

Addiction is a serious risk with heavy recreational amphetamine use, but is unlikely to arise from typical medical use.[13][27][28] Tolerance develops rapidly in amphetamine abuse, so periods of extended use require increasing doses of the drug in order to achieve the same effect.[62][63]

A Cochrane Collaboration review on amphetamine and methamphetamine dependence and abuse indicates that the current evidence on effective treatments is extremely limited.[64] The review indicated that fluoxetine[note 8] and imipramine[note 9] have some limited benefits in treating abuse and addiction, but concluded, "no treatment has been demonstrated to be effective for the treatment of amphetamine dependence and abuse."
***

So you are sure that you, a person who has never tried any narcotic in your life, would know that your condition of "alertness, apprehension, concentration, decreased sense of fatigue, mood swings (elevated mood or elation and euphoria followed by mild dysphoria), increased initiative, insomnia or wakefulness, self-confidence, and sociability" is a consequence of a drug intoxication or it's just because of your your susceptibility to the psychological atmosphere of a great mass of people? No, you'll notice that something wrong only when narcotic withdrawal begins.

No I'm not sure. That's why I said "I think I would know if I did.". I'm very careful with words. If I was sure then I would have said "I know I would know if I did.".
Please understand that I have school everyday, homework, chores, and social activities so I don't have very much free time to learn everything I wanna know about the Ukraine crisis. But I do wanna know so I'm trying to learn more.
You made a good point. I remember how excited I am at concerts and amusement parks so maybe I would confuse the excitement and the effects of a drug. There was a lot of excitement on Independence Square.
Thanks for the information about drugs.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

So you deny the very existence of the snipers! That's something new! The last known for me move of Maidan defenders was to blame Russia in the snipers' case. They said about a Russian army uniform chevron found in an alleged place of a sniper, a very shaky evidence, but I've never heard before about denying their existence completely. That's fine! Carry on!

Wow! I totally did miss the news about the snipers. I googled and I found these. The first link is about a leaked phone call from Estonia. The second link proves there was snipers.
Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders | Mail Online
Video: Ukraine crisis: Telegraph dispatch from Kiev's Independence Square - Telegraph

I also agree that the Russian army uniform chevron isn't proof since anyone could have put it there. Police in the US have also been caught planting evidence at the scene of a crime.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Amphetamine is actually used in medical practice but it is heavily regulated in most countries. So what a sample do you need? A sample of a regulated but still legal medical drug which must be used only by a highly professional medical personnel in very controlled order? Suppose, you found such a drug, how can you be sure it was not misused?

That would be very complicated. If the sample was from a victim's body then it would be very difficult to learn how it got there or where it came from. If it was found in food or tea then they would still have to learn how it got there too.
I googled for almost an hour trying to find an article about the drug thing but I didn't find any. If you know about an article, please post it. It can be in either language because I can read a Russian article as fast as I can read one in English.

Anyway, I thought my post was in another thread but I found it in this one. When I have time, I'll read more of the posts in this thread.
Btw, most people in my city call the drugs & snipers thing a conspiracy theory. Some of them even told me that there weren't any drugs or snipers. Thank God for the internet! I would be lost without it.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Both "theories" (as you called them) are proved by the facts. The doctors noted that a lot of the patients (injured on the "maidan") have weird reactions which looked like they were on drugs or at least felt the consequences of that. I don't think that everybody there used drugs. But I have a reason to believe that there were three groups of people who used it:
a) The real drug addicts who had been using drugs long before the protest. These people are very cheap and can do anything for little money or even for a drug dose. I guess there were a lot of them, because they are asocial and don't appreciate life. Ideal people for protests. Therefore, we have to see lots of evidences. And we have it.
b) Those protesters who got some light drugs with food or drinks, just for supporting their spirit in an energetic (or even agressive) state. I don't think these drugs could cause serious consequences. I guess it's something like an intense antidepressant. You feel like an inspired revolutionist, but in fact it's just some meds.
c) Special drugs, only for the armed groups of the protesters. I assume, this type of drugs is something like the preparations for the US special forces. Just for instant effect (no pain etc). I'm not 100% sure, though.

Thanks for letting me know. Those links that SergeMak posted did mention a lot of drug-related issues in the hospital. If you know about any more articles on the drug issue, please post them. Either language is fine. I can read a Russian article as fast as I read an English one.

No, Sergemak, it couldn't be meth. You have to use it for months to have physical effects of withdrawal. And it's too strong to don't notice its effects. (Btw, one of well known side effects is crazy boost of sexual desire, there's even stories about how heterosexuals may have gay sex if they can't find opposite sex partner.)

If people were diagnosed as drug addicts, they were told what drug it was, there would be official evidences, analyses, medical conclusions. But all we have is just some doubtful stories.

Хорошее интервью с интересной, талантливой женщиной:
Кира Муратова: «Я могла бы высказать личные претензии к Украине, но я их не имею» | Colta.ru

Originally Posted by it-ogo

4) Думаю, я сформулировал для себя, что хотел, и пришел к некоему устойчивому состоянию.

Ok.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Хорошее интервью с интересной, талантливой женщиной

Лампада, скажи пожалуйста, ты согласна с Кирой Муратовой?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Лампада, скажи пожалуйста, ты согласна с Кирой Муратовой?

Конечно, согласна. Она умница и реалистка. Отдавать или не отдавать Крым - такой вопрос вроде вообще не стоял. А ты в чём-то с ней не согласен?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Конечно, согласна. Она умница и реалистка. Отдавать или не отдавать Крым - такой вопрос вроде вообще не стоял. А ты в чём-то с ней не согласен?

Я не согласен вот с этой цитатой:
"— Я хорошо понимаю людей — их достали, их слишком долгое время гнобили и унижали. Украинцев, так же как и молдаван, в России считали дураками, анекдоты рассказывали об их глупости, а они улыбались — да, мы дураки. Пришел момент, народ решил восстать и изменить свою жизнь — они имели на это право."
Так вот в чем весь сыр-бор! Революция была вызвана анекдотами! А я-то думал - низким уровнем жизни населения, нерешенностью насущных социально-экономических проблем, расцветом коррупции и пр. Причем виноваты именно русские, рассказывавшие эти анекдоты, а не неспособность самих украинских граждан справиться со своими собственными проблемами. Кстати, я не могу почему-то вспомнить ни одного анекдота, высмеивающего глупость украинцев. Хитрость, жадность - да, но не глупость.

Объясните мне, с каких пор культурная элита стала разбираться в сложнейших геополитических процессах? С каких пор они стали экспертами в экономике, политике и социологии?
С какого $%@#$% объясните мне, все эти, с позволения сказать журнализды, обращаются к этим людям за разъяснениями? Ты актёр, музыкант, режиссёр? Занимайся своим делом - играй в театре, устраивай концерты или снимай кино. Какого #$%$ надо делать какие-то заявления?

Нет, я, разумеется, понимаю зачем всё это делается. Как раз в расчёте на тот пресловутый закон о 95% населения, ибо люди культуры априори считаются "носителями авторитетного мнения" для достаточно больших социальных групп. Общественное мнение формируется именно так: "Вот, и (вставь имя носителя авторитетного мнения) считает так же. Я смотрел(а) кино с ним(ней). Он(она) не может ошибаться, ведь его(её) герой(иня)/книга/фильм/песня - такие славные!"

Дурдом же! И мы в этом дурдоме живём. Да и объяснять что-либо тоже глупо. Само по-себе глупо, ибо что можно объяснить человеку, который "голосует сердцем", а не головой, который мнение о внешней политике государства заимствует у музыкантов, писателей и актёров.

Притом (я не хочу никого обидеть, среди деятелей культуры действительно ещё остались уважаемые лично мной люди), зачастую, эти самые носители культуры весьма недалеки в областях, которые не касаются их профессиональной деятельности, и точно так же подвержены действию пропаганды.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Конечно, согласна. Она умница и реалистка.[...] А ты в чём-то с ней не согласен?

В чём-то несогласен, но частично согласен с главным: "Зомбированию можно противостоять, анализируя вещи самостоятельно." С тобой можно поговорить о противостоянии зомбированию, основываясь на экспертном мнении Киры Муратовой, или нельзя?