Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Этому способствовало (случайное/благоприятное) стечение обстоятельств.
Причиной того было неожиданное стечение обстоятельств.
Так сложились обстоятельства.
В силу стечения обстоятельств...
...мог выйти из-под контроля
не осознал/не осознавал опасности.
Расторгнуть, расторжение обычно о контракте, договоре
Указы, реформы? Ельцина раскололи, развалили Советский Союз.

Eric, how exactly do you "know" this? You don't live in the USA. What do you think waitresses, construction workers, cleaners and low skilled factory workers in the USA make? It sure ain't no $30... (note my yankee English! ) I don't know precisely what it is either, but if they were on anywhere near $30 they'd be well ahead of their collegues in the UK.... whereas the reality is the opposite. Low skilled workers in the US are less paid than in the UK, not more. I'd like to see the look on the employer's face if you walked in and asked for a 30 USD/ hour to do a low skilled job.

But then why, according to this theory, does China lend money to he USA? Is it some kind of vicious circle where they have to keep propping it up because the alternative is even worse...? I mean, why else lend to someone who isn't going to pay back? I am sure they have a very good reason for lending that money - they are clearly very shrewd. I've been wondering if the US isn't going to come up with some rhetoric about why their debts to China don't need to be paid... Or what other options do they have?

During the cold war era, all companies in Sweden wanted to do business with the Eastern bloc, because those countries always paid, straight away, no fuss. My dads company did a lot of such business and he pointed that out many times.
All that disappeared straight away in the 1990s though and whole businesses fell down because suddenly they no longer got paid, or even ripped off. I think I read somewhere that they also always paid their foreign debts, but did not have much debt.

I think it's spooky about the US debt though.
If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

Originally Posted by Hanna

If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

That's true. But also, it won't crash until the US themselves really want it. The dollar stability is kept by almost everyone's belief outside the US.

Originally Posted by Hanna

But then why, according to this theory, does China lend money to he USA? Is it some kind of vicious circle where they have to keep propping it up because the alternative is even worse...? I mean, why else lend to someone who isn't going to pay back? I am sure they have a very good reason for lending that money - they are clearly very shrewd. I've been wondering if the US isn't going to come up with some rhetoric about why their debts to China don't need to be paid... Or what other options do they have?
...I think it's spooky about the US debt though. If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

Think about it, the nations of the world are now running fiat currencies, un-backed by gold or anything else. As a result of the 'financial crisis' the US, EU, China UK etc all had to go into some kind of QE to keep things from unwinding. All currencies are being inflated in a sort of sloppy but coordinated way. Thus parity is not in any real danger. The USD is not dropping out of sight, or crashing. Why did/does China lend to the US? Think back to the industrial expansion of China. China used the demand from US for cheap products to stimulate industrial expansion. This required that they get on the USD bandwagon. Once started, it is hard to get off. China is pushing currency swaps with other nations now, and this will gradually reduce the demand for USD as reserves over time. Not catastrophically, not drastically.

Originally Posted by nulle

Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR.
USA also are not guaranteed to last forever.

And US are paying interest on their debt all the time - if they stop - no one will lend them any more.

The US is rolling debt over. Not paying it off. It is the t-bill standard. In reality the debt is not being payed, because the central banks that are caught in the loop cannot do anything with the dollars and t-bills they have except recycle them with the US treasury. Central banks that have USD/t-bills cannot buy anything with them. The US has no intention of stopping the rolling over of treasuries. But it is not really paying off the debts. Again this is the 'fault of composition' thing. You can do something with USD if you have it, and buy something. The central banks that have USD cannot buy anything with them, except exchange them for t-bills and they can sell/swap USD for other currencies, and they are doing some of that. But purchase of US assets is forbidden. Only in special, select cases can anyone outside of US buy US assets. Buying consumer goods by individuals is completely different, and allowed.

"Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR. USA also are not guaranteed to last forever." And how is that going to happen?

the debts of a super power never get paid. Nothing will happen. Try and collect

Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR.
USA also are not guaranteed to last forever.

And US are paying interest on their debt all the time - if they stop - no one will lend them any more.

It's a really interesting comment Nulle.... something for all countries to remember.
But I'd have to say that I don't think the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia are third world.
Maybe for a year or two in the 1990s at the most. But I suppose that depends on what the criteria for being a third world country is.

@Eric, I was still in Belarus on the 22nd. I didn't find out about the problems until I read about it on the BBC.

Originally Posted by Hanna

But I'd have to say that I don't think the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia are third world.

You said it as if you would be some kind of exception So, do all people in Sweden think that we are third world? ;D

In reality the debt is not being payed

I said that they pay interest, not debt itself...

Originally Posted by nulle

I said that they pay interest, not debt itself...

Actually, the US can cancel or default on a part of it's debt, without any problems, no interest rate problems, no foreign exchange problems, no problems of any kind. Every country on the planet can cancel or default on some of their debt. It is directly related to the ability to have high marginal tax rates for the highest tax brackets. Look at the picture, from Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For many years, the US had high tax rates for the highest income earners. It did not harm the economy, nor the rich. The ability to do this exists in every country. This is directly connected to the ability to selectively default (or cancel) on some debt, with absolutely no consequences. Every country can do this. This means that they can also get out of even paying some of the interest. That is why the debt crisis is completely irrelevant theater. It is a big yawn. The rich don't want you to know this, because they use it in politics to crush labor..
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.But what do we get? We get... "What we get instead of a responsible and progressive tax policy or trimming of the defense budget is the steady drumbeat of debt panic, with loud demands to cut social services, shrink pensions and pay, and, oddly enough, provide additional tax reductions for the well-to-do. This debt panic has become the driving argument for a ferocious assault on workers. Class war is being waged, and sensing victory, the owning class is taking no prisoners." from http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25754
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Originally Posted by mergike

You said it as if you would be some kind of exception So, do all people in Sweden think that we are third world? ;D

What are you talking about? I said that these countries are NOT third world and I have certainly never thought that they were and nobody in Sweden or anywhere else thinks that. Read what I wrote again. And read Nulle's comment before mine - he seems to be saying that the USSR became 3rd world. I don't agree with that.

It used to be "2nd world", but that expression was never actually used, although the idea was that the European socialist economies were "2nd world". Pretty much everything else in Africa and most of Asia was considered developing countries and/or third world. Perhaps these terms are getting outdated now.

How to categorise the ex - socialist countries in the 1990s and now (1st, 2nd, 3rd) I really don't know - you are probably better placed to say how you would categorise it.

I seems that this time it‘s me who made a mistake. I‘m sorry for this misunderstanding.
Anyway I‘m not going to categorise which countries of former Soviet Union could be 1st, 2nd or 3rd world. Of course, Baltics are not already as much advanced as some other west Europe countries, but I still think that we are really far away from third world... ‪Lithuania Presentation [Long Version]‬‏ - YouTube

P.S. this video was made before economical crisis in Lithuania started, this is why it‘s said that Lithuania has been showing steady economical growth for more than 10 years. Of cource, when crisis started there was a fall of GDP in Lithuania and a lot of people lost their jobs but I can‘t agree that in Baltic states there was downright deadly crisis which was more devastating and severe than let‘s say in Greece (as it was said in one of the articles to which Sareph posted a link) And personally I don‘t think that any of Baltic states will face such things what Greece are facing right now.

he seems to be saying that the USSR became 3rd world. I don't agree with that.

Baltic states did not - Russia on the other hand...

Originally Posted by mergike

‪Lithuania Presentation [Long Version]‬‏ - YouTube

I like this comment under the video - "thank the russians and soviets for preserving all that beauty!"

90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed by Russians.

When it happened? there was bombing?

All you are able to is just that

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Originally Posted by Romik

When it happened? there was bombing?

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Of course, these two things can’t be compared. But does it means that killing unarmed civilians is normal and everything have to be like that???? Actually, you really didn‘t surprise me with comparison of dead people number during January events and the number of Jewish killed during the second WW in Lithuania. However, I‘m not even trying to compare these two things, it‘s you who is doing it because you simply don’t know how to make all these soviet crimes in Lithuania look less serious.
By the way, if according to you it‘s Lithuanians who killed all these Jewish here then maybe you can explain one thing to me: Why when Nazis understood that they are going to lose against Russia they started digging out shot Jews bodies and then burned it? If it‘s Lithuanians who killed Jewish when we were occupied by Germany then why Nazi tried to hide proofs of this terrible crime? What was the point for Nazi to do that???

Anyway, I’m not going to delve in this topic anymore, if there is still something unclear to you then read my previous posts about it.
Furthermore, is it really important how Soviets destroyed towns of Lithuania? No matter how they did it, the result was the same – everything was destroyed.

Better look at Russia - now there racism and nazism definately is on the rise.

Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons.

Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
The same was in other Baltic states too.

But why now they work?

Originally Posted by Romik

Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons.

But why now they work?

How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t.

First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania.
And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time.
Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that?
Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

Originally Posted by mergike

How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t.

First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania.
And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time.
Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that?
Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

I do look at ourselves, there'd been bad things to Jews and other nationalities in USSR but it wasn't Nazism because they had the same that had Russians, there were exploded not only synagogues but also Russian churches. Anyways there is measure to any evil - exploded churches can be rebuilt but murdered people can't. As for occupation - it's not so big evil like genocide. We occupied, we were occupied and that has been going on all around the world, the best democracy is still doing it in Iraq, Afghanistan ets and the USA and many others are the result of occupation, so you can just thank God that you haven't shared fate with American Indians.

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Before Nazi invasion there were no problems with Jews in Baltics.
In Latvia yiddish was one of the official languages - you could speak in it in the parliament.
Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
The same was in other Baltic states too.
So please research the facts and don't spread bullshit propaganda.

Better look at Russia - now there racism and nazism definately is on the rise.
‪Nazi crisis in Russia‬‏ - YouTube
‪Set My Brother Free!!!‬‏ - YouTube
I was going to post another video - but better not - it is really fucked up...