Thread: Думские выборы 2011

о боже! Это ужасно! И это весь выбор? О_о
Между кпрф и яблоком/справедливой россией..
Пока задумалась..

Я собираюсь за Справедливую Россию (за эсеров).
Много лет назад я голосовал за либеральную идею: СПС. Но обули конкретно. Либералы оказались монополистами (что странно по определению) и страшно далёкими от народа (в котором полно любви к либеральным и даже анархическим идеям).
Потом голосовал за идею крепкой России: за Единую Россию. Но мне не нравятся морды чиновников, которые в этой партии. Андрон Кончаловский говорил, что не важно что (делать), важно с кем.
Теперь хочу за эсеров. Их идеи приемлемы. Но главное, что люди из СР вызывают симпатию. Думаю, что в Питере они наберут около 30%. Все мои знакомые за них.

А на выборах президента буду за Путина.

I would go for the Communist Party, but I sense corruption... Then again every political party has corruption... But I like United Russia's ideology, just not really it's politicians.

Выбор между клизмой и сэндвичем с дедьмом.

Наш ЖЭК ни в чём "порочащем его" замечен не был. Собственно, особо не могу пожаловаться. Территорию убирают, мусор вывозят, горячая вода/отопление работают.А о коррупции: есть знакомый один, который работает в конторе, ну скажем, с названием "РосОбналПром" . Так вот, он тоже ЗА коррупцию.Эта вся бытовая коррупция может и удобнее (кстати, с ГиБДД вообще чудеса, говорят -- стали реально брать меньше взяток. Многие отказываются), но в государственном масштабе - это бардак и уже недетская коррупция в верхах. Что причина, что следствие - уже не разберёшь, но экономике от этого не легче. Теневой оборот чуть ли не больше официального ВВП. Так не может (и не будет) продолжаться вечно. Рано или поздно какой-нибудь из механизмов даст сбой и мы получим 90-е годы повторно.Именно поэтому я и за смену действующих элит на их противоположность раз в несколько лет. 4 года - хороший срок. Рулят (и воруют) одни, потом приходят другие, разгоняют гадюшники, делают 2-3 показательных процесса. Через 4 года - новых (опять с разгоном и посадками). Потом ещё. Так, потихонечку, от коррупции можно и избавиться. Главное - менять правительство достаточно регулярно. Знаю, эта точка зрения -- спорная, но этот вариант всё лучше, чем то "Роисся, вперде!", которое предлагает ЕдРа.

Originally Posted by Ramil

кстати, с ГиБДД вообще чудеса, говорят -- стали реально брать меньше взяток. Многие отказываются

Могу подтвердить, что с гаишниками творится что-то странное. Три дня назад меня остановили за превышение на 45 км (засняли на камеру). Пробили по базе и обнаружили два неоплаченных штрафа полугодичной давности. За все эти подвиги мне полагалось как минимум 1000-1500 руб штрафа (за превышение) и 15 суток ареста (за неоплаченные штрафы). Так мало того, что не вымогали взяток, так ещё и отпустили без составления протокола за нарушение, заставили только пообещать, что я оплачу старые долги в течение суток (блин, кстати надо пойти заплатить, обещал всё-таки).

Originally Posted by Basil77

Могу подтвердить, что с гаишниками творится что-то странное.

Это ящерики овладевают. Начали с гаишников.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Могу подтвердить, что с гаишниками творится что-то странное. Три дня назад меня остановили за превышение на 45 км (засняли на камеру). Пробили по базе и обнаружили два неоплаченных штрафа полугодичной давности. За все эти подвиги мне полагалось как минимум 1000-1500 руб штрафа (за превышение) и 15 суток ареста (за неоплаченные штрафы). Так мало того, что не вымогали взяток, так ещё и отпустили без составления протокола за нарушение, заставили только пообещать, что я оплачу старые долги в течение суток (блин, кстати надо пойти заплатить, обещал всё-таки).

Militia men --> policemen transformation maybe? =)

Ну, так и прекрасно. Раз коррупция устраивает и жить стало лучше, жить стало веселее, тогда зачем менять ЕдРу на КПРФ?

Не знаю, меня не останавливают. Я по правилам езжу.

Моего кандидата - Против Всех - на выборы не допускают. А среди оставшихся никого не могу выбрать. Все они к последнему пункту подходят.

Explain one thing to me, please. How come there are plenty of Russians who are gonna vote for the commies? Hasn't the history taught them a thing?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Explain one thing to me, please. How come there are plenty of Russians who are gonna vote for the commies? Hasn't the history taught them a thing?

I'm 34 y.o. and I lived first 14 years of my life in Soviet Union. from my personal experience and from my parents' experience I can tell that it was far more fair and less corrupt society than we have currently in Russian Fed. Also current Communist Party of Russian Federation looks like the only real party except the ruling one. I have only two reasons against voting for them: 1 - they are still trying to idolize that monster Stalin and 2 - they are still called "communists" instead of changing the official name to social-democrats. But I understand that they have a heavy reasons for that: there are many people from generation of "old school communists" are still alive and among their supporters. After some time passes I belive they could get rid of those anachronisms.

Originally Posted by Basil77

I'm 34 y.o. and I lived first 14 years of my life in Soviet Union. from my personal experience and from my parents' experience I can tell that it was far more fair and less corrupt society than we have currently in Russian Fed. Also current Communist Party of Russian Federation looks like the only real party except the ruling one. I have only two reasons against voting for them: 1 - they are still trying to idolize that monster Stalin and 2 - they are still called "communists" instead of changing the official name to social-democrats. But I understand that they have a heavy reasons for that: there are many people from generation of "old school communists" are still alive and among their supporters. After some time passes I belive they could get rid of those anachronisms.

So, you think they ARE gonna change their attitude? I just don't see a reason they would do it. Somebody on here (I think Croc) has already stated that the commies a century ago didn't say anything about mass shootings or stealing private property either. They only talked about social equality and fairness just like their successors are doing now. It's just I wouldn't trust anyone who's shifted left too much.

Originally Posted by Basil77

they are still called "communists" instead of changing the official name to social-democrats. But I understand that they have a heavy reasons for that: there are many people from generation of "old school communists" are still alive and among their supporters. After some time passes I belive they could get rid of those anachronisms.

Could I humbly ask what makes you think that way? I can't really make those conclusions out of their program.

Also, as to your 14 years of life experience in the Soviet Union - I respect that. It was a little more for me, but that does not make much difference as both of us remember the USSR of the so-called "stagnation period". It might have been better life in those days than today in terms of less corruption and more social security, I agree. However, please notice that "magic fantasy" somehow ended rather abruptly because it couldn't sustain itself any longer. The economic prosperity of the major cities came at a price. There was a very big fight back then. In the beginning, the "war party" headed by Yuri Andropov had come to power just a few days after Brezhnev had died. And the military shift had begun with the keyword "Pershing 2" voiced in the radio and the TV in average every 10 minutes or so. But then, the "more conservative party" had ousted the "war party" letting it govern only a year and a half. However, the conservative party did not have a real leader, it was just the opposition of those who were afraid to start the WWIII. So, while in the internal fights, it tried to figure out their leader.

So, finally, the party which promoted Lenin's approach (НЭП) to the economic disaster had won because they had a seemingly more realistic plan. They simply convinced their opponents with the slogan: "what worked well in the past will work well in the future". The leader of that party was young and ambitious Michael Gorbachev. First, the government thought it would solve the economic issues by allowing some relatively minor elements of the market economy (the cooperatives on the small scale and хозрасчёт on the large scale). That started to work rather ugly, in part because people have lost the tradition on how that should be done properly, so the majority of people who took advantage were those who were traditionally close to markets at that time - in fact, the criminals and those [corrupt] policemen who supervised the markets. Second followed the idea of cutting on the major government expenses: the Afghan war and the monetary assistance to the socialist countries. That required some change in the official rhetoric. Unfortunately, due to the other factors those initiatives did not help to preserve the USSR and its Developed Socialism. Gorbachev had lost in the struggle which took an unforeseen turn and so the country had plunged into the 90-s.

To sum it up, the USSR of our childhood was artificial in many ways and couldn't sustain itself economically in the long run. I think, the leaders of the Soviet Republic had experimented enough. To make the KPRF win today in the [relatively] open and fair elections is like letting Hitler's party win. It gives them the full legitimacy to do whatever they want. Why? Because, it's the people's will! The people voted to end the "rotten democracy" and the "rotten capitalism". Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by Vadim M.

Моего кандидата - Против Всех - на выборы не допускают. А среди оставшихся никого не могу выбрать. Все они к последнему пункту подходят.

А чего можно добиться, голосуя "против всех"? Какая от этого польза? Я буду голосовать не "за", а "против".

Originally Posted by Ramil

А чего можно добиться, голосуя "против всех"? Какая от этого польза? Я буду голосовать не "за", а "против".

It's like you like apples but hate pears and peaches. Somebody tells you to choose between a pear and a peach. You tell him you choose neither, but he insists you choose one saying you can't just vote them out, and if you do there won't be pretty much useful of your choice. What would it look like to you?

Originally Posted by Ramil

А чего можно добиться, голосуя "против всех"? Какая от этого польза? Я буду голосовать не "за", а "против".

А я даже не про "добиться", а про то, что я действительно не вижу среди кандидатов того, за которого я хотел бы отдать свой голос. Так что проголосовать против всех лично для меня это единственная возможность участвовать в выборах. Я не хочу не ходить на выборы, не хочу забирать бюллетень с собой, не хочу портить его. Но и ещё меньше хочу отдавать свой голос тому, кому я не хочу его отдавать.

А добиться можно того, что если вариант "против всех" соберёт большинство голосов, то на вновь назначенных выборах будут (сорри, были бы - у нас же нет возможности голосовать так) уже другие кандидаты. Глядишь, было бы из кого выбрать.

Croc, you have perfectly explained what happened in the 80s but you have modestly passed the later events. The economic experiments of the leaders of USSR in 80s looks like child play in comparisson to the "experiments" (if they could be called so by any means) that were perfomed on people here in 90s. You have said that communists were trying to solve economic problems by attempt to restore НЭП policy and it's failed. Nice. But neither Lenin nor Gorby couldn't even imagine to make strategic industry branches and natural monopolies private! And not simply private like sell them through stock exchange to cover the gap in state budget but literally present the property on them to some random people. Залоговые аукционы, ёперный театр! So these new "owners" felt that this new property could be confiscated from them any time and were trying to gain as much quick profit from it as possible and weren't investing a kopeck in their companies. In result almost all former soviet plants and factories turned into warehouses now (where real estate costs something) or look very much like Chernobyl area. Industry is dead. Education is dead also: the level of incompetence everywhere is terrific. The level of pessimism among people seems very high. And btw, if we are speaking of KPRF's programm measures that they are suggesting to decrease the corruption level (I think that there is almost no way to make it any higher than current), they seem sufficient IMHO to burst small and medium buisness activity. (НЭП!) But the main reason that makes possible for me to vote Communists is the one: I want periodical goverment change through democratic elections in my country. Putin&Co are against me in this particular little desire of mine. And voting for communists is almost only option that left exept participating in arranging "colour" revolt or such stuff.

Originally Posted by Basil77

The economic experiments of the leaders of USSR in 80s looks like child play in comparisson to the "experiments" (if they could be called so by any means) that were perfomed on people here in 90s.

And I totally agree with that. We might perhaps disagree with the interpretation of those events (more specifically who was responsible), but I would definitely agree the 90s were a way less socially stable.

Originally Posted by Basil77

You have said that communists were trying to solve economic problems by attempt to restore НЭП policy and it's failed. Nice. But neither Lenin nor Gorby couldn't even imagine to make strategic industry branches and natural monopolies private! [...] Industry is dead. Education is dead also

True. But is that what the United Russia is going on doing or it had just been inherited as the legacy of the Yeltzin era? The damage had been done. Do we need another change that would cause another damage perhaps a way worse than the present? What I'm trying to build the parallel with is as following: the WWI had Russian Empire devastated and deteriorated in many ways. That surely gave the legitimacy to hate and despise the Crown regime. But what happened as a result of the Civil War could not by any means be compared to that. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by Basil77

But the main reason that makes possible for me to vote Communists is the one: I want periodical goverment change through democratic elections in my country.

And that is [presently] your democratic right. But when the Communists will come to power again, what kind of assurance you have they will not cancel that very right of yours officially? It's the One Party concept, right? All the other parties might be officially banned and prosecuted. Remember Hitler? So, thinking just one step ahead, would voting for the Communists be a right move?