Thread: Yushchenko Poisoning

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Originally Posted by Mordan

From our perception of authoritarian regimes, it seems very likely that the poisoning was done on the behalf of the Kutchma regime.

Brilliant!

I excatly know what I wrote, and I knew one would point out the irony.
Now more on the substance, Why would an authoritarian regime not kill its opponents? They are not accountable to anyone! Have you not learn from History? I repeat... nothing prevents an authoritarian regime from killing people who disagree.

I don't understand why you are so irkful.

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Well, from our percetion of evil empire called USA, all recent "revolutions" were organised and sponsored from there, for geopolitic purposes of empire only, that have nothing to do with democracy, human rights and other such things.

Why is your perception of the US (and the west) so bad? We don't see the Russian and the Ukrainian people in such a bad light! Actually quite the contrary.
You say that it is nothing to do with democracy? That sounds really foolish. Saying what happened in Ukraine has nothing to do with democracy is a bit extreme?

I have an ukrainian friend who would have given much just to go to Kiev and demonstrate with all those Ukrainians. This shows that democracystarts with the people Alex, not with the US. No doubts, ukrainians democracts got help from outside and western politic toward Urkaine may have helped, but that does not change the core fact democracy starts with the people.

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

BTW, I do not read Russian newspapers at all, I read only Western ones, Guardian, Economist, WP, NYT, etc. So we read the same, we're just different in our perceptions and conclusions.

I find this hard to believe my friend. You live in Kamtchaka and you read all those? And no russian newspaper? Why not?

Are you not the guy who would like to have another Stalin at the head of the Russian state? Then I would understand why your perception is so radically different.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Why would an authoritarian regime not kill its opponents?

"Normal" authoritarian regime doesn't have political opponents that worth killing them, first of all. Was there political killings in Brezhnev's SU? No. Dissidents were supressed by another means. They all are alive and well till today. Kuchma's "regime" theoretically, could try to kill Yuschenko, but not because it was authoritarian, but because it wasn't authoritarian just a little bit. That's why I couldn't hold that "Brilliant!".

Originally Posted by Mordan

They are not accountable to anyone!

Elected deputees aren't any more accountable to anyone. It's the problem. As people who experienced different political systems, we can see the difference (or absense of difference) more clearly, than if our experience is limited to the one and only system that we consider the best.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I repeat... nothing prevents an authoritarian regime from killing people who disagree.

Nothing prevents, but nothing demands to use such means. There was no such thing as "competition". Killings (political included) came to FSU along with competitive politics and economics.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Why is your perception of the US (and the west) so bad? We don't see the Russian and the Ukrainian people in such a bad light! Actually quite the contrary.

Actions speak louder than words. "Phrases and... bases" picture: http://www.plakaty.ru/i/plakats/medium/1733.jpg. (Was posted on this forum already).

Originally Posted by Mordan

You say that it is nothing to do with democracy? That sounds really foolish. Saying what happened in Ukraine has nothing to do with democracy is a bit extreme?

Why nobody at the west calls for regime change in Saudi Arabia? But targets far more free states of Ukraine, Georgia and Belorussia. Democracy is a good slogan, but it is used as a tool, when it's necessary, to achieve goals that are equally far from both democracy itself and happiness of local people.

Originally Posted by Mordan

This shows that democracystarts with the people Alex, not with the US.

As I said before, "democracy", "freedom", etc slogans are used as a tool in geopolitic games. People are used as a tool as well. Ukrainians who supported orange coup (not all Ukrainians, fortunatelly, but less than a half of them) still do not understand what they've done. But they will understand soon enough. Ukraine agreed to drop import rates for most goods to join WTO. As a result, Ukraine's industry will die soon, not beign able to counter cheap import from Europe. Ukraine will be European camp of cheap labour force without any own manufacture, and a place where EU will sell goods. If you say it won't happen, look at Poland. Their unemployment is 20% already and is rising. Russia now has to stop all economic cooperation with Ukraine and rise export prices to world level. We won't pay for their orange adventures.

Originally Posted by Mordan

I find this hard to believe my friend. You live in Kamtchaka and you read all those? And no russian newspaper? Why not?

I read all this online, of course. Online versions, of course do not repeat paper version exactly, but contain a lot of articles anyway. Btw, I saw some guy who found "unbelievable" that I have internet connection while living on Kamchatka.

As for Russian newspapers... Honestly, I read them also, but western press I read more often.

Are you not the guy who would like to have another Stalin at the head of the Russian state?

No, I am not. I think political views of real Russians are hard to understand for you. I was called Putin's supporter, though I'm not, I was called Stalinist, though I am not, I was called communist, though I'm rather anti-communist. Go on, i don't have any problem with beign called this or that.

Then I would understand why your perception is so radically different.

You would not. To have such different perception one must live in a different state and be surrounded by different life. And Stalin has nothing to do with it.

Interesting, I haven't seen one Russian here supporting the Ukranian banana revolution, or was it orange? Is this because Russians in general (yes, yes, I know) see Ukraine as "part" of Russia?

So Alex, you would rather see Yanukovitch as the president of Ukraine because you don't want the Ukraine in the EU, am I understanding you correctly? What other issues might you have with Yushenko and Timoshenko?

Just curious.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Interesting, I haven't seen one Russian here supporting the Ukranian banana revolution, or was it orange? Is this because Russians in general (yes, yes, I know) see Ukraine as "part" of Russia?

It is because we don't like foreign-backed and especially US-backed puppet governments worldwide. And we don't like when somebody makes fools of people to achieve his political goals.

As for your second question, land called "Ukraine" now is our ancient Motherland, where all Russians came from. Once it was stolen from us and since then we struggle to get our homeland back. Western Ukraine was under foreign rule for too long - separate ethnicity is formed there as a result. But people of Russia and Eastern Ukraine are still the same nation.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

So Alex, you would rather see Yanukovitch as the president of Ukraine because you don't want the Ukraine in the EU, am I understanding you correctly? What other issues might you have with Yushenko and Timoshenko?

As I explained already, countries should join EU, WTO and other organisations when they're ready. Today orange sect tries to hurry up integration process. Whether they want to bring to real life at least some of their pre-election fairy tales, or they just repay the support for their coup, anyway this would be a disaster for Ukraine for reasons I explained earlier.

Interestingly, they try to hurry up integration processes with Russia. It was a puzzle for me, but now I understand. Free trade with Russia will help them to compensate losses from joining WTO, and make an illusion that their policy is successful. At our expense. No, we should treat Ukraine as a "far-abroad" now, until they kick orangists out.

So, what do I have against orangists? Everything they do serves their own personal interests and interests of their foreign masters who brought them to power. People mean nothing for them. And even more bitter that Eastern Ukraine is involved in this adventure against its will. I don't want my relatives to be part of this orange state.

Very interesting facts Alex. Do you know any websites where I can read more about what you have said?

Originally Posted by Kamion

Very interesting facts Alex. Do you know any websites where I can read more about what you have said?

First link that can be mentioned is http://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/cgi-bin...00503210.shtml. It's devoted to Ukraine-EU relations and have news sections with references to Ukrinform.

Well, according to Timoshenko:
"[Ukraine]significantly lowered import rates, which were a barrier to beneficial relations between Ukraine and its foreign economic partners until recently. Mrs. Tymoshenko said that the next step on the road to liberalization of export-import operations would be significant reduction of import tariffs on foodstuffs, which would allow Ukraine to further accelerate its relations with its foreign partners. According to her, the policy of lowering tariffs has already started yielding results: budget revenues from import tax have tripled compared with last year".

So, Ukraine already drops import rates and will drop them even more by the end of the year, as WTO joining comes closer. Orangists present it as fully positive thing, that will allow to "accelerate relations with foreign partners" and "increase import tax revenues". Unfortunatelly, at the same time it will allow to bury Ukraine's industry and agriculture. It's clear for everyone who knows a little about economy of FSU. Look what's happened when soviet economy was liberalised overnight - yes, at the morning it was dead.

Russia is by far more ready to join WTO, because our economy is stronger and has at least some branches that can survive in competition. And still we are negotiate for acceptable terms of joining. If we abolish all import rates, we would be in WTO tomorrow, but nobody here needs it by such heavy price.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Interesting, I haven't seen one Russian here supporting the Ukranian banana revolution, or was it orange? Is this because Russians in general (yes, yes, I know) see Ukraine as "part" of Russia?
.

I know Russians that support the Orange and also dislike Putin. I also know russians that like putin and think that Ukraine should stay with Russia.

Originally Posted by Mordan

1- The case was also investigated by independant doctors, so I heard. European and american ones.

As far as I know:
The Rudolfinerhaus was the *only* clinic, in which Yu. was examined *in person*.
All other "independent doctors", probably, just received his blood samples for lab testing. Obviously, they hadn't sufficient control over the process of taking samples -- neither they could knew, what happened with samples afterwards, before they received them.

Originally Posted by Mordan

2- Lothar Wicke may have received money for saying just that. or pressure or something else.

You're just turning facts upside down.
Dr Wicke really *was* pressured (he received phone threats, etc.), but only *after* his made his statement. However, there is absolutely no evidence he was bribed or pressured *before*.

Originally Posted by Mordan

3- I thought they did both.

You were wrong. The *only* test, result of which was presented to public, was a blood test. (See links below.)

Originally Posted by Mordan

Anyway I think by looking at his face, you can see something went wrong no?

What a wise conclusion! Yes, obviuosly something's wrong with his health. The point of this discussion is: what exactly is wrong?

Originally Posted by Mordan

4- Because "they" wanted to make people think it was some kind of "accident". So they used a soft poison. Another reason might also be that the poisoners sucked.

Somebody poisoned someone by poison, which is *extremely* easy to detect (and according to all I heard needs *years* to be evacuated even from living person)... and this is done to look as an "accident"???
There's something seriously wrong with your logic.

Originally Posted by Mordan

5- See above. So that it is not so obvious.

Sigh. See above.

Originally Posted by Mordan

6- He "knows" but he does not have proofs obviously. His claim to know is entirely valid. And besides I think what he said was a clever political move, if that makes any sense to you?

If there it no crime, there obviously are no proofs of it.
Probably, sometimes his statements really were kind of clever political move -- but now they start to sound *silly*. Even his followers are beginning to be uncertain in the "official" version...

Originally Posted by Mordan

Back on reading my free press to know what happened in Kirghizstan

Thank you. I know perfectly, what your favorite "free" press in writing about Kirghizstan. I bet, even if it turn into Taliban-like islamic regime, they will write the same.

As I promise, here is the couple of very interesting links:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=4164

[bThe Yushchenko 'Poison Plot' Fraud
He's poisoning Ukrainian politics with lies[/b]

The headlines blared: "Doctors Confirm Yushchenko Poison Claim" – and, yes, even I believed it. But, you know what? It's a lie. And now the truth is coming out….

And here is the article from medical blog:

http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueb ... gs_yu.html

YUSHCHENKO'S DISEASE : A TALE OF TWO POISONS

A very interesting analisys of his disease from medical point of view, absolutely free from politics...

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

It is because we don't like foreign-backed and especially US-backed puppet governments worldwide. And we don't like when somebody makes fools of people to achieve his political goals.

Yes, I know, all the fewer puppet governments for Moscow to have! What a pity.

Originally Posted by DDT

I know Russians that support the Orange and also dislike Putin. I also know russians that like putin and think that Ukraine should stay with Russia.

I don't like Putin too much, but I don't support that "orange throwing". Domestic power, good or bad, is better than orange plague that hit the world.

"Stay with Russia" or "Not to stay with Russia" are just empty words. In reality with any power, Ukraine will not go away from Russia, it's tied too closely, especially the eastern part. Even orangists understand it. But anyway, free Ukraine is better for us than orange western colony.

The first part of the question seems an interesting subject, and worth discussing, why not?

Although I agree the question was put in a rather strange way. It's a little antagonising and generalised. Then seems to ramble off into an attack on Russians in general.

So I'll give my opinion, for what it's worth.

Firstly 'Mordan' writes 'there is no proof'.

No direct proof? that's correct (ie. a reliable source giving first hand corroborated evidence that the event took place as suggested).

High probability? Yes, I agree when all things are considered, I find it highly unlikely that Yushchenko poisoned himself or that his supporters did. Especially at such a high level of toxicity. It would be a ridiculous thing to do, to almost kill yourself and inflict lasting damage with such a high dose. It was so high, it's unlikley to have been a miscalculation either.

So it's fair to assume that someone supporting the oposing candidate was responsible. with links to the Russian government? It wouldn't surprise me.

'What kind of government?' etc etc .....................Well let me tell you, pretty much every government in the world................................ Eastern, western American, British, Russian etc etc is capable of such things (including wars, conflicts, cheap tactics etc).

Some governments, I guess may have attempted something a little more subtle, but I think it's fair to say the Russians don't mess around!! Maybe making it so obvious would be part of the tactic, to send out a message, I don't know.

As for the bit about 'starting to get popular' and 'for your looks and ideas' The point is a little strange and put across in a generalised and confused manner, I'm not sure he was poisoned for his looks particularly, was he? Or that he was 'beginning to get popular' (I think he was already pretty popular!!) I don't think I'll try to answer this confused aspect. It doesn't make much sense.

The writer then briefly makes general comparisons with Islamic terrorists and his point becomes a little more lost and unsubstantiated.

As for the bit about Putin, though I wouldn't put it past him, the writer then presumes that Putin gave personal consent, of that there's little evidence. Possible, but it's hard to say who gave consent. Maybe he did. But only maybe.

The writer then seems to attack Russia Generally in a kind of rambling unsubstantiated manner 'poisoning with ideas' etc etc ??? make of that what you will, it's a bit confused and seems to assume everyone in Russia is out to kill him??

Why is the West so powerful today? We seem to be going off the subject here and I think would be hard to answer this in a concise way. Though it probably has more to do with finance and the Global economy.

So I think the initial question is fair, I suppose, the first conclusions, probably correct. But in general it's a rather rambling, misinformed general attack on the Russian people. Most of whom, I'm sure, are decent very hard working people. I'm sure they were no more personally reponsible for Yushchenko's poisoning than I am (being from Britain) responsible for bombing Iraq. Ask Tony Blair. On second thoughts, don't bother.

As for Bush?? Well, let's not even go there shall we?

Now, some decent, informative, and balanced discussions please. (PS your photo looks a bit smug Mr Mordan)

I'm not sure if this was even a seriously put question!!??

ah oh, the photo police are here!

Let's get it over with already. I poisoned Yushchenko!

Originally Posted by Pravit

Let's get it over with already. I poisoned Yushchenko!

Well that piece of news doesn't surprize anyone Mr Pravitt. We all know who signs YOUR weekly paycheck now, don't we?

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Pravit

Let's get it over with already. I poisoned Yushchenko!

Well that piece of news doesn't surprize anyone Mr Pravitt. We all know who signs YOUR weekly paycheck now, don't we?

Yulia Tymoshenko

U.S.A. signs my weekly paycheck, baby!

BTW, the security around Askar Akayev's kitchen is so tight you couldn't believe. Good thing it didn't matter in the end, though.