Thread: Ukraine Elections 2010 + various political off-topics

Originally Posted by Ramil

Well, let's see, who would you think will sooner understand the motives of a man, a person who lives nearby or a person from another continent?

You lost me here. Would you be able to elaborate? Earlier I mentioned that St.Peterers are more reserved and less outwards emotional than Moscovites. So, are St.Peterers more individualistic than Moscovites? You see? The word "more" is a very bad word to be applied here. It can mean as much as 1% or as much as 90% inclusive.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I strongly disagree about the "abyss" though.

You're not in a position to speak here, by the way. You're not from Western Europe, aren't you?

And I strongly disagree with that as well. On the contrary, only the person who is familiar enough with BOTH cultures is in a position to evaluate the differences.

Originally Posted by Ramil

We're not discussing whether it goo or bad. In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.

Ok, so now well-educated Johanna is asking well-educated yourself about the difference and you're saying it is huge. Why?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Of course, the better educated person is the more he or she knows and the less that abyss I was speaking of. But FYI there is only about 1% of people in the world who has higher education.

Ok, so do you mean that the difference (individualistic-wise) between the well-educated Europeans and Russians is minimal? Or, do you mean that a French peasant is more individualistic than a Russian peasant?

Originally Posted by Ramil

And regardless of me being unfamiliar to my shame with Asian culture to the extent I'm familiar with the European one I still think that Russia is neither European nor Asian country.

That is correct to the extent that France is not England, Spain is not France, Portugal is not Italy, Greece is not Scotland, etc. But (since I assume you normally eat with the fork and not with the chopsticks) do you agree that you were influenced much more by European culture than any other foreign culture? Ok, Russia was conquered by Mongols some time back, but how much do you know Mongolian culture?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

And I strongly disagree with that as well. On the contrary, only the person who is familiar enough with BOTH cultures is in a position to evaluate the differences.

Crocodile, read again the original quote:

Originally Posted by Ramil

From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.

If you see something alien (not familiar) and you don't understand it you see the difference.

Originally Posted by Crocodlie

Ok, so now well-educated Johanna is asking well-educated yourself about the difference and you're saying it is huge. Why?

Read the original quote please.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ok, so do you mean that the difference (individualistic-wise) between the well-educated Europeans and Russians is minimal?

No, but an educated man tries to find the common features.

Or, do you mean that a French peasant is more individualistic than a Russian peasant?

Yes, I think so.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That is correct to the extent that France is not England...

No, I'll rephrase the original Johanna's question the way I understood it:
Do you believe that Russia is a European or Asian country. (Just like that, without definitions, clarifications, elaborations, etc).

My answer was - neither (again - just a simple answer to a simple question).

Originally Posted by Basil77

Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.

Кто-то мешает переключиться на РенТВ или Йэху Мацы, и насладиться чернухой? =)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

ихние свободы - не для нас."

Во многом это так и есть.
Вообще, свобода - она внутри человека. Ее нельзя привить политическим путем. Если и можно, то суррогат получается. Люди на западе думают, что они свободны уже потому, что они живут в некоей политической системе, которая априори делает их свободными. И всерьез рассуждают об отсутствии и защите свободы в стране, в которой они никогда не были.

Простой подменой понятий из давнишней культурной дискуссии сформировался лозунг, имеющий вполне конкретные политические последствия.

Это твое личное видение, и на мой взгляд, довольно притянутое за уши. Я или кто-то другой может увидеть в словах про особый путь России в устах Медведева или Путина любой другой подтекст, какой ему больше нравится.

И все же ты путаешь лозунг с концепцией или национальной идеей, сокрытой в разных мудреных контекстах, которые еще надо уловить, объяснить и расжевать. Лозунг - это то, что для всех. Одно-два слова, просто и ясно. Так вот, демократия на западе - это лозунг для всех. Я даже не представляю себе, чтобы где-нибудь на американском ТВ организовали какое-нибудь ток-шоу на тему "Демократия - это хорошо или плохо?" А у нас на тему "особого национального пути" сколько угодно диспутов. Только свистни.

Da Croc is back on form!

My highly scientific expert opinion which has been empirically proven in numerous clinincal studies:
-------------
SOME European countries are a bit more "individualistic".
In my opinion, Italian, Dutch and French people value individualism a lot. To some degree English people too.

Germans are a law unto themselves. Hard to say whether they are "individualistic" or not, but less than the French, Italians and English I think.

Swedes get critisized for being obsessed with consensus and that everybody tends to have very similar opinions about everything. Similar story in Finland and Austria, but Norwegians and Danes are a bit more individualistic.

I don't know enough about Eastern Europe, Greece or Portugal, so I don't have a view of that.

Originally Posted by Ramil

In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.

Well, in the eyes of the same people that you are talking about, Russia fills a "vital role" as the "scary" country in Europe! (even though, based on history, it ought to be Germany...)

If people didn't worry about Russia, they might start worrying about why exactly there are still US bases in Europe and lots of other undesirable questions. The Georgia war was great for such people because it "proved" that Russia is aggressive. Lots and lots of strategists could start plotting how to deal with a similar situation in one of the Baltic States...

There is probably at least a million people in Europe who are making a living one way or another from the general paranoia about Russia. Not to mention companies etc.

Propaganda, silly or funny?
The Simpsons clip about Russia... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrqcUeTcmH4

No, I'll rephrase the original Johanna's question the way I understood it:
Do you believe that Russia is a European or Asian country. (Just like that, without definitions, clarifications, elaborations, etc).

My answer was - neither (again - just a simple answer to a simple question).

Two possible responses to this, either:

1) Your answer is invalid since Russia is not a continent.
2) Your answer makes sense because the country is geographically split between two continents.

Option two places you in the same category as Turkey who is viewed with great suspicion by many Europeans, certainly the EU.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Originally Posted by Basil77

Ой, я забыл ещё мемберов ЕдРа . Это новости о них, для них и ради них, и только.

Кто-то мешает переключиться на РенТВ или Йэху Мацы, и насладиться чернухой? =)

Ящик я смотрю только на кухне (когда ем или готовлю), и только 2 канала: Euronews и Viassat History (в основном второй). Эхо в машине бывает слушаю, грешен, хотя политику радиостанции и не долюбливаю во многом. Но не Вести ФМ же слушать в конце концов!

Originally Posted by Johanna

Propaganda, silly or funny?
The Simpsons clip about Russia... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrqcUeTcmH4

We have an answer
Yury Grymov's "Stangers" about respectable american families =) http://www.chuzhiemovie.com/

Насчёт свободы - опять же, что вы называете свободой?
Вот, например, буддисты (если я не ошибаюсь) считают, что истинную свободу человек обретает, когда перестаёт желать. Человек должен освободиться от мирских желаний, страстей и т. п.

В этом плане западное общество является самым порабощённым. Они прикованы к своим вещам, деньгам и пр. ТАКИМИ оковами, что о свободе никакой речи не идёт. Россия сейчас идёт по тому же пути.

И о новостях: в последнее время я всё больше убеждаюсь, что сведения о действительно важных для меня событиях я могу почерпнуть из своего окружения - т.е. - из слухов. Если происходит что-то важное, то об этом начинают говорить люди, вот тогда я лезу на какой-нибудь малоизвестный новостной сайт и выясняю подробности.

Таким образом я избавляюсь от кучи "мусорной" информации, которая не засоряет мой мозг. Пропущенная через множество "фильтров" информация сохраняет лишь ключевые слова, по которой можно обратиться к поисковику. Остальные комментарии и рассуждения про то, что "демократическая общественность опять в шоке" остаются в головах тех, кто смотрит новости.

Может быть смешно, но слухи становятся более достоверным источником информации, чем зомбоящик.

А в машине я слушаю "Наше радио".

В этом плане западное общество является самым порабощённым. Они прикованы к своим вещам, деньгам и пр. ТАКИМИ оковами, что о свободе никакой речи не идёт. Россия сейчас идёт по тому же пути.

Yes, this is true. But now Russians are just as materialistic! Right?

Or do you think you personally are less materialistic because of the old socialist ideals from your childhood?

There must be something very tragic about growing up as a child with the ideals of socialism (solidarity, friendship, equality ETC) and then just when you become an adult, the whole thing is dropped! "Welcome to adult life and the capitalism; your money is worth nothing and your ideals are dead! Have a Coca Cola!"

I think this might have happened to some people on this forum? (My country changed its views a lot, and became much more commercially oriented. But the change was nowhere near as extreme as Russia. But I got disillusioned anyway.)

We have an answer
Yury Grymov's "Stangers" about respectable american families =) http://www.chuzhiemovie.com/

I will watch this! Look out for my review

Originally Posted by Johanna

Your answer makes sense because the country is geographically split between two continents.
Option two places you in the same category as Turkey who is viewed with great suspicion by many Europeans, certainly the EU.

Unlike Turkey, which annexed a small part of European continent, all Russian lands in Asia are some sort of colonies. Until XVI century Russia hadn't any Asian lands and the story of conquering Siberia reminds me strongly about Cortés and Pizarro cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermak

ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ермак_Тимофеевич

And Middle Asia and Caucasus were annexed much later, in XIX century.

BTW, what do you think about Denmark in this context since 95% of it's territory (Greenland) is outside of European continent either?

Originally Posted by Ramil

From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.
I'm not trying to say that Russia is typically asian, I only try to say that it's more Asian than France, for example. And from the other hand it's more European than Turkey (or Georgia for that matter). The correct term will be 'Eurasian'. This word reflects the real position of Russia among the world's cultures.

We're not Asians by all means, but we're not Europeans either.

Wow, bottomless abyss. I'm glad I don't see that otherwise I wouldn't be studying Russian.
How is the abyss between Russian and China?
How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)

Originally Posted by sperk

How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)

Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Originally Posted by sperk

How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)

Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.

Ramil, talking about Mongols.

Originally Posted by sperk

Originally Posted by Basil77

Originally Posted by sperk

How is this "Asianness" manifested? (other than Mongol blood running through the veins of some Russians.)

Were did you get that? The last phrase is almost exact citate from Alfred Rosenberg.

Ramil, talking about Mongols.

Hehe Then no more questions, just remember that Ramil, as far as I know, not a serious scientist in the field of ethnography and anthropology, so I wouldn't take too serious his allegations in that field .

Hehe Then no more questions, just remember that Ramil, as far as I know, not a serious scientist in the field of ethnography and anthropology, so I wouldn't take too serious his allegations in that field .

LOL
If you happen to look what I wrote about the Mongols and also the context...

Nobody reads my posts it appears...

Here, I'll help you:

Originally Posted by Ramil

In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.

Originally Posted by sperk

How is the abyss between Russian and China?

I'd say, gigantic.
But my point of view is European, Muscovite. I know that there are a lot of the Chinese in the Far East of Russia. I have never been there.

Originally Posted by Basil77

я смотрю ... Euronews ...

Тогда мне вообще удивительно слышать эти претензии к нашим новостям. По Евроньюз Обамку пиарят покруче, чем ВВП по Первому. =)

Originally Posted by Ramil

If you happen to look what I wrote about the Mongols and also the context...

Nobody reads my posts it appears...

Here, I'll help you:

Originally Posted by Ramil

In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.

Ramil, sorry, I didn't mean to insult you by any means. I'v read this exact post and agree with you that this statement takes place. I was thinking that sperk meant some other post.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Originally Posted by Basil77

я смотрю ... Euronews ...

Тогда мне вообще удивительно слышать эти претензии к нашим новостям. По Евроньюз Обамку пиарят покруче, чем ВВП по Первому. =)

А причём тут Обамка? Мне на него вообще плюнуть и растереть. Меня в новостях интересуют факты и только, причём факты об основных значимых событиях у нас в стране и в мире. Извиняюсь, но мне не интересно смотреть, как Путин передал какой-то там областной больнице десять новых автомобилей скорой помощи, а Медведев провёл очередное совещание с руководителями санэпидемслужбы Мухосранского района.