Thread: Ukraine Elections 2010 + various political off-topics

Originally Posted by Basil77

Originally Posted by Ramil

If you happen to look what I wrote about the Mongols and also the context...

Nobody reads my posts it appears...

Here, I'll help you:

Originally Posted by Ramil

In the eyes of many (not all) Europeans we're just that - wild, savage and barbaric Russians with probable relation to the Mongols.

Ramil, sorry, I didn't mean to insult you by any means. I'v read this exact post and agree with you that this statement takes place. I was thinking that sperk meant some other post.

It's ok I wasn't insulted but I hate to see my words being mangled.

Originally Posted by Basil77

А причём тут Обамка? Мне на него вообще плюнуть и растереть. Меня в новостях интересуют факты и только, причём факты об основных значимых событиях у нас в стране и в мире. Извиняюсь, но мне не интересно смотреть, как Путин передал какой-то там областной больнице десять новых автомобилей скорой помощи, а Медведев провёл очередное совещание с руководителями санэпидемслужбы Мухосранского района.

Ну, в Евроньюз Россию вообще почти не показывают. Так, какую-нибудь гадость выудят и покажут под рубрикой "No Comment." Совещания Медвепутов смотреть действительно занудно, но по НТВ по-моему ничего так новости -- в любом случае, то, что у них там в Европе творится тоже не всегда интересно. Ну, Греция на грани банкротства, right. Ну, англичанам чего-то не сидится, подумывают выйти из Евросоюза (был такой сюжет в начале января). Нам-то от этого ни горячо, ни холодно.

Originally Posted by Оля

I'd say, gigantic.
But my point of view is European, Muscovite. I know that there are a lot of the Chinese in the Far East of Russia. I have never been there.

In terms of language and race, ethnicity, yes. Let's not forget that Russian is part of the Indo-European language family, so Chinese is indeed very different. Russian culture was based on the Byzantian, i.e., Greek culture, so... All you have to do is look at the Cyrillic alphabet and the Latin one and compare them with Chinese hieroglyphs.

In terms of culture, on the other hand, I wouldn't call it an "abyss." I think it's ultimately counter-productive to set oneself apart so much. All it takes is to get to know a bit of their culture, like watch "The House of Flying Daggers" or something. Very distinct and unique and special culture, no doubt, but not so alien. I think it says something that they like "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" so much. I used to love the Japanese anime "Sailor-Moon" as a teen so, clearly, I could relate very well to the problems and feelings portrayed in it.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Извиняюсь, но мне не интересно смотреть, как Путин передал какой-то там областной больнице десять новых автомобилей скорой помощи, а Медведев провёл очередное совещание с руководителями санэпидемслужбы Мухосранского района.

Ну и зря, он недавно на каком-то совещании так угарно про "в граните отливают" зажОг!
Мне Медведев одного нашего царя напоминает. Даже некоторое внешнее сходство, кстати, есть.

@Оля&starrysky
Да ёлки, я же написал, что смотрю ящик только на кухне. Вот представьте, прихожу я вечером с работы, сажусь ужинать, и тыкаю ленивчиком в ящик. Евроньюс мило бубнит гнусавым голосом, и я спокойно съедаю свой ужин, ничто не мешает пищеварению . Если же я включаю новости на ВГТРК, к примеру, то там немедленно появляется морда господина Сечина, который бодро рапортует премьеру об очередных многомиллиардных прибылях от продажи нефти или физиономия Чубайса, открывающего очередную конференцию по нанотехнологиям . У меня немедленно портится аппетит и появляется непреодолимое желание запустить в ящик табуреткой. Ну и на хрена мне после этого сдались новости по федеральным каналам?

BTW, I'v just noticed, this thread should win the award "The greatest off-topic ever" on this forum!

Originally Posted by Basil77

BTW, I'v just noticed, this thread should win the award "The greatest off-topic ever" on this forum!

Ой правда!

Originally Posted by Оля

Мне Медведев одного нашего царя напоминает. Даже некоторое внешнее сходство, кстати, есть.

Интересная мысль. Симпатяга, в общем, только под Путина косит малость. Их много там таких сейчас, как не послушаешь -- ну точно такие же интонации и паузы.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

What culture more influenced you personally European or Japanese? What name rings the bells better for you: Walter Scott or Chikamatsu Monzaemon?

Good point. I could easily name maybe a dozen European composers off the top of my head but no Asian ones. And the same applies to all cultural things. Hence, we certainly have beeen influenced much more by the European culture than Asian. I've just been reading two interesting articles on Chinese and Japanese, after which Russia and the Russian language/culture look really European.
Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard?
So You Want To Learn Japanese

Originally Posted by starrysky

Интересная мысль. Симпатяга, в общем, только под Путина косит малость. Их много там таких сейчас, как не послушаешь -- ну точно такие же интонации и паузы.

Да нет, просто и того и другого одна и та же команда имиджмейкеров (тьфу, слово противное) обрабатывает.

As far as I am concerned I consider Russians (at least those who look reasonably European) to be European.

(Unless you are too "special" to want to be included with the rest of us plebs on this scruffy old continent, lol!)

The cultural and political stuff is technicalities and all of the countries in Europe feel that they are a bit "special" and not like the others, for one reason or another!

But I suppose there are ethnic minorities in the Russian Far East that should not really be included...

Apparently Caucasus is technically European, but I feel like they are more of a borderline case, like Turkey...

Perhaps the Tatars feel less European than other Russians, in light of having a different religion (or?) and a mixed background? I don't know much about it...

With Ukraine there is no question at all.

Oh, one more thing. Starrysky, Novosibirisk is NOT technically in Europe is it? Are there a lot of minority people there, or mostly Russians?

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by Crocodile

ихние свободы - не для нас."

Во многом это так и есть.
Вообще, свобода - она внутри человека. Ее нельзя привить политическим путем. Если и можно, то суррогат получается. Люди на западе думают, что они свободны уже потому, что они живут в некоей политической системе, которая априори делает их свободными. И всерьез рассуждают об отсутствии и защите свободы в стране, в которой они никогда не были.

Дык, есть огромная разница между филосовским понятием свободы и термином "политическая свобода". Первое имеет абсолютно субъективное значение. Второе - калька с английского (например "Charter of Rights and Freedoms") и имеет юридически очерченные границы. Отсюда и неразбериха.

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Простой подменой понятий из давнишней культурной дискуссии сформировался лозунг, имеющий вполне конкретные политические последствия.

Это твое личное видение, и на мой взгляд, довольно притянутое за уши.

Разумеется личное. Похожий пример с переносом контекста в политическую плоскость - "Труд облагораживает!"

Originally Posted by Оля

Я даже не представляю себе, чтобы где-нибудь на американском ТВ организовали какое-нибудь ток-шоу на тему "Демократия - это хорошо или плохо?" А у нас на тему "особого национального пути" сколько угодно диспутов. Только свистни.

Сдаётся мне, что если бы во времена образования США были зомбоящики, возможно транслировали бы и такие диспуты. Сейчас страсти уже улеглись. В 70-х в СССР тоже не было вопроса о руководящей роли партии.

Originally Posted by Johanna

Da Croc is back on form!

Ya, mun!

Originally Posted by Ramil

From our point of view, perhaps, but if you look at Russia with the eyes of an average European you'll see the bottomless abyss that divide our cultures.

I suggest we put aside all the misreadings and misunderstandings. I think there's no big gap between Russian and European cultures. I also think that the individualism of Europeans and the collectivism of Russians are both stretched out of real proportions. Perhaps it used to be that way in the past, but not anymore.

Originally Posted by Оля

But my point of view is European, Muscovite.

Moscovite = someone from Moscow

Muscovite = a phyllosilicate mineral of aluminium and potassium [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite]

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Разумеется личное. Похожий пример с переносом контекста в политическую плоскость - "Труд облагораживает!"

* Освобождает

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think there's no big gap between Russian and European cultures.

Agreed, you think so. But you're not an average European

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I also think that the individualism of Europeans and the collectivism of Russians are both stretched out of real proportions. Perhaps it used to be that way in the past, but not anymore.

The difference may indeed be smaller nowadays than before, but again I'm saying that Russian mentality differs from both European and Asian ones. There are cultural, historic and linguistic reasons for this as I pointed out. Russia cannot be classified as 'purely European' or 'purely Asian'. This is my main point. The rest is just irrelevant details.

And my view upon the past and the future of this situation. Cultures mix up and dissolve in each other. People travel more, people talk to people from the other side of the world, people marriage people of different nationality, culture or race and give birth to a new generation that in theory can inherit both cultures but in practice it inherits none. So if we will track this tendency to some point in the future we would discover that cultures, languages, traditions, etc are dead.

Originally Posted by Johanna

Oh, one more thing. Starrysky, Novosibirisk is NOT technically in Europe is it? Are there a lot of minority people there, or mostly Russians?

No, the Urals are the border for the European part of Russia. It's mostly Russians here in Novosib, I couldn't tell the percent but I don't see a lot of people of Asian descent here -- just a random student from Kazakhstan or Altai. I wouldn't answer for other Siberian cities, like Irkutsk (which is near Lake Baikal) because there are Buryats there. But it seems a safe bet that Russians are a majority in all big cities, except Kazan. Kazan is the capital city of the Republic of Tatarstan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan, apparently, it's around 50% Russians, 50% Tatars there.

Originally Posted by Ramil

It's ok I wasn't insulted but I hate to see my words being mangled.

Sorry....

Originally Posted by Ramil

in the future (...) cultures, languages, traditions, etc are dead.

Yes, if globalisation continues, that would be the likely outcome. But of course it won't happen over night. One step per generation.
It would start with regional blocks, then eventually go global.

Originally Posted by Johanna

Yes, if globalisation continues, that would be the likely outcome. But of course it won't happen over night. One step per generation.
It would start with regional blocks, then eventually go global.

Do you think it might be a good idea to start forming an artificial 'global' cultural context that would encompass the languages-cultures-traditions that we have today? I think, if left totally uncontrolled, there would be one culture that eats 'em all, won't you think? For example, I would prefer children all over the globe start learning something like Esperanto as their foreign language rather than English. What would you say?

Unfortunately, this process cannot be organized, or so I think. It's an evolutional process and will continue by its own laws. It's up to us, however, to decide how much of our local cultural heritage will be incorporated into this 'world' culture.

What concerns the language, I think that English is the most probable candidate for 'universal language'. It's not decided by overall number of speakers (there are more people speaking Chinese, for example, but it's unlikely that Chinese will become universal). Any artificial language will also fail (why learn an artificial language if we've got many 'natural' ones). Even the English language will be changed in the end (even though it's the most probable candidate for 'universal language').
I think that in the end there will be a phonetic alphabet with latin letters based on English (Native English speakers are not that numerous compared to Spanish or Chinese and since everybody learn English now, but not all do it properly, there are no doubts that the language will be changed. (You can visit any international forum, by the way, where one can find people from all parts of the world, but the rules say that 'all posts are to be made in English'. You will see how English gets transformed by this 'fresh blood' into something new).

One of the issues with that is a language is learnt in the context of a culture. English is widespread now due to the IT culture. d u expec r futer gens speak tther bffs ws tis typ olang?

I think there might be many ways to implement a move to a neutral artificial language. For example, the UN can make that language one of their official languages requiring all their documents being translated to that language. That would breed a new generation of translators. I think, that might be a smart political move to some of the countries which oppose a very specific culture, but still want to go global.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Do you think it might be a good idea to start forming an artificial 'global' cultural context that would encompass the languages-cultures-traditions that we have today? I think, if left totally uncontrolled, there would be one culture that eats 'em all, won't you think? For example, I would prefer children all over the globe start learning something like Esperanto as their foreign language rather than English. What would you say?

Interesting!

As for a united world: Some countries tried "Workers in all nations, unite..." for a while until 1990...

So after that, it was clear road ahead for "Capitalists in all nations uniting... very fast..." Spearheaded by the US and it's interests and culture. If there must be a globalised culture I'd prefer it to be something more neutral.

Also known as "globalism", and certainly driven by motives of constantly increasing profitability. It pushes a fast-paced super-productive lifestyle, standardisation of everything, "lowest-common-denominator" culture and a very universal set of values and views. The digital revolution helped it happen faster than anyone could have expected.

A lot of people don't really support this, but what can they do? English is the language of globalism.

Globalism spooks me, even if I am on the right side of the fence, so to speak.

Personally, I am AGAINST English as lingua franca. Particularly in Europe, but also in the world.

It reinforces the power of certain countries that currently are or have been imperialistic... It pushes their culture and values at the expense of other cultures or values.

RE English: The ludicrousness of me (Swedish) speaking the language of a country on another continent with people from a neighbouring country (Russia) is a good example! I feel like a muppet to be speaking English!

If I could, I'd prefer to speak some other language. Particularly Esperanto which belongs to no country and all people. I wouldn't mind speaking Russian either, if I could speak it to a decent level. Simply in recognition of the fact that it's a large local language in Northern Europe which I also come from.

In todays world, if you come from one of the smaller (population wise) European countries and want a professional career, you MUST become fluent in English.

I had a very cynical view of languages in school, and concluded that all the other langauges I was studying were of secondary importance to English. I only made an effort in English. (That's partly why I flunked out of Russian I think. Unlike French and Spanish you cannot "coast" in Russian, it's too hard, complicated and different from a non-Slavic perspective... )

ONE of the reasons I have chosen to learn Russian is that it is in fact the most commonly spoken mother tongue on the European continent. English is actually only number 4 or something like that.

My grandparents in Sweden all studied German as their first foreign language. If anyone took a second foreign langauge, it was French.

The importance of English is a Cold War legacy, and business driven. It has been CONSCIOUSLY pushed by English speaking countries because they know that it serves their interests very well.

I don't know Esperanto but I support its' ideals and the fairness of of having a "neutral" language that is nobodys, and that is also A LOT easier to learn than English.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

One of the issues with that is a language is learnt in the context of a culture. English is widespread now due to the IT culture. d u expec r futer gens speak tther bffs ws tis typ olang?

Pbly wrse )
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I think there might be many ways to implement a move to a neutral artificial language. For example, the UN can make that language one of their official languages requiring all their documents being translated to that language. That would breed a new generation of translators.

And yes, there will be about two dozen people who speak it. I

I think, that might be a smart political move to some of the countries which oppose a very specific culture, but still want to go global.

You won't be able to change it for those who already lives. You should separate children and their parents to bring a new culture into this world. Would you do that?

Christian missionaries acted like that (but they only taught children in schools, not permanently isolated them)

I don't mind globalism, btw.
It will help to get rid of racism, nationalism, etc.
There are many drawbacks, of course, but I really think that people should be citizens of the planet Earth, not some petty country.