Thread: Turkey strikes targets in Syria in retaliation for shelling deaths

Originally Posted by Юрка

2) По-моему, этот снаряд Турции выгоден. Теперь у неё развязаны руки. И Западу выгоден. Так как Турция - это агент Запада. И Крокодилу выгоден. Так как он агент Запада. (Агент - это тот, кто действует в чьих-то интересах).

I'm not just a Western agent, I'm also paid by the West, so I'm a paid agent! (I'm paid to do other things, but it's the West which pays me. So, we all know whoever pays, dictates what to do... )

In investigation practice, the approach of "who benefits" is valid only to define a circle of the suspects and nothing more. However, when used outside of the applicability context, the "who benefits" becomes a powerful weapon of a propaganda to blame your political opponents of just about anything that happens. No proof is ever required.

Originally Posted by Юрка

3) Сирия конечно не хочет войны с Турцией или кем-то ещё. Надо быть самоубийцей чтобы в сложной ситуации хотеть ещё повоевать и с регулярными войсками соседних государств. Тем более, что у Турции очень многочисленная армия.

I agree to some extent. However, the problem with those kind of claims is that you can make that claim the other way around. For example: Syrian government wants to get rid of the insurgents, so it provokes Turkey thus putting the insurgents into the political situation in which they collaborate with the enemy. And that can significantly hit the motivation of the insurgents as well as the civilians who help them maybe causing their forces to split and thus weaken. "All Syrians, unite to fight the common enemy - Turkey!! They want our land and they want to kill our people and rape our women!! If you are a patriot, join the Army and fight Turkey with us!" That will not result with the war with Turkey (the UN Security Council will not let that happen), but it might effectively end the insurgence and make Assad be the leader of the nation again.

It is exactly because that logic (i.e. "who benefits") can go any way you want, it is LOVED by propaganda (and is strictly avoided by me outside of the applicability context). So, being the smart and the honest guy as you are, I think you would appreciate that and do the same thing.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I agree to some extent. However, the problem with those kind of claims is that you can make that claim the other way around. For example: Syrian government wants to get rid of the insurgents, so it provokes Turkey thus putting the insurgents into the political situation in which they collaborate with the enemy. And that can significantly hit the motivation of the insurgents as well as the civilians who help them maybe causing their forces to split and thus weaken. "All Syrians, unite to fight the common enemy - Turkey!! They want our land and they want to kill our people and rape our women!! If you are a patriot, join the Army and fight Turkey with us!" That will not result with the war with Turkey (the UN Security Council will not let that happen), but it might effectively end the insurgence and make Assad be the leader of the nation again.

It is exactly because that logic (i.e. "who benefits") can go any way you want, it is LOVED by propaganda (and is strictly avoided by me outside of the applicability context). So, being the smart and the honest guy as you are, I think you would appreciate that and do the same thing.

То, что повстанцы получают всестороннюю помощь от Турции, всем в Сирии очевидно.

Originally Posted by Marcus

То, что повстанцы получают всестороннюю помощь от Турции, всем в Сирии очевидно.

And, again the same "propaganda magic" can be applied the other way around: the fact that Assad's regime is being supported by Iran is obvious to anyone in Syria.

Also: Lebanon news - NOW Lebanon -Iran assisted Syria to relocate chemical weapons, Al-Arabiya leaks reveal

You see? If you talk propaganda with me, I can easily talk propaganda back, because propaganda exists for each and every situation for any side you like. There's nothing to think about. I'm used to share my own thoughts (be them maybe 100% wrong), but when I ask others and they get back to me with propaganda I feel like . If I need to read propaganda I know where to find it. I'm curious to know what do you think of that?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I'm not just a Western agent, I'm also paid by the West, so I'm a paid agent!

Наверное на первом же занятии агентам Запада рассказывают об этом способе ухода от угрозы раскрытия: сразу признаться, но перевести всё в шутку.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

"All Syrians, unite to fight the common enemy - Turkey!! They want our land and they want to kill our people and rape our women!! If you are a patriot, join the Army and fight Turkey with us!"

А я предполагаю другую логику. Бандам в Сирии очень трудно. Им очень нужна прямая военная поддержка (интервеция) стран Запада. Поэтому они сами стреляют в сторону Турции, организовывая провокации.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That will not result with the war with Turkey (the UN Security Council will not let that happen)

Нет стран, переступающих через Совет Безопасности в вопросах войны? Есть НАТО, есть США, есть Турция. Им нужен только повод, чтобы сохранить хорошую мину при плохой игре. Совбез им пока мешает, но если надо они об него ноги вытрут.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Наверное на первом же занятии агентам Запада рассказывают об этом способе ухода от угрозы раскрытия: сразу признаться, но перевести всё в шутку.

Wow! You have also figured out about our top secret Зе Скул?! You know too much, my friend...

Originally Posted by Юрка

А я предполагаю другую логику. Бандам в Сирии очень трудно. Им очень нужна прямая военная поддержка (интервеция) стран Запада. Поэтому они сами стреляют в сторону Турции, организовывая провокации.

Ok, let's assume you're right. Imagine you and me are the two field commanders of the Syrian opposition. Both of us are meeting at the dawn, dressed up in dirty and wet camouflage, surrounded by our best people. Everybody is tired and angry: it has been a very tough night - we were escorting the weaponry and ammo delivered by a Turkish guy named Murat. We don't know how he gets the weapons, but the rumors have it - the guy is stealing the weapon from the Turkish army and sells it for the relatively cheap. We can't pay more anyways. The following conversation takes place:

(Crocodile) - Man, my people are tired. It's getting worse and worse. First, those bastards killed Hossein and his brother Sаddam, and now about the quarter of my group are sick. The motivation is low. What do you think we should do?

(Юрка) - I have a brilliant idea. Let's fire a couple of shells towards Turkish villages and kill a dozen of villagers! That way Turkey would intervene in our war against the bastards, oust Assad and hand us the power!

- Are you out of your mind? What's going to happen is Murat would kill us all the very next time we show up to get more ammo!

- You have never been smart, Crocodile. You just don't understand where the weapon is coming from. It is actually the US paying for all the weapon and the ammo we get and Murat is just an agent of the US because he acts the way that benefits the US. So, the US can see we're tired and in order to help us they are only looking for us to provoke Turkey, so Turkey could have legal ground to start war against Syria. Assad, that is. They will not touch us for sure. Instead, they would give us the power to reign once they are finished.

- How do you know all that stuff, Юрка? Do you have a crystal ball?

- You're young and don't have much experience like me.

- You know, if you want to be crazy and kill yourself this very exotic way, it's your right. But, I don't want Turkish coming to kill, rob, and rape whoever they see fit because I was an officer in the Syrian army, so I don't let you do that!!

(The fire exchange starts.)

Can you see your assumption is rather close to absurd in practice?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Wow! You have also figured out about our top secret Зе Скул?! You know too much, my friend...

I think it is safe to assume that for many Russians you will be a "Western spy" and for many North Americans you will be a Russian spy and even if you climb up on the CN Tower and scream that you are not a spy - it's not gonna change a thing I guess they might think the same about me
People are victims of propaganda

Originally Posted by Doomer

I think it is safe to assume that for many Russians you will be a "Western spy" and for many North Americans you will be a Russian spy and even if you climb up on the CN Tower and scream that you are not a spy - it's not gonna change a thing I guess they might think the same about me
People are victims of propaganda

But what person can be both an American and a Russian spy at the same time? =)

Originally Posted by Eric C.

But what person can be both an American and a Russian spy at the same time? =)

Any, depends on amount of propaganda

Originally Posted by Doomer

I think it is safe to assume that for many Russians you will be a "Western spy" and for many North Americans you will be a Russian spy and even if you climb up on the CN Tower and scream that you are not a spy - it's not gonna change a thing I guess they might think the same about me
People are victims of propaganda

Which is ok by me as I realize I'm just another victim of the same thing. But that is ok as long as they realize we are all victims and they are also ready to open their mind and start having their own thoughts. Otherwise, there could be no conversation, but exchange of propaganda. Such "conversations" could not go anywhere other than offending each other.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Are you out of your mind? What's going to happen is Murat would kill us all the very next time we show up to get more ammo!

Турки сами могли подсказать "сирийской оппозиции": "ребята, стрельните вот сюда. Много народу не убъёте, а повод вам помочь дадите". Вы что, не знаете что такое провокация? Немцы не пожалели свой Рейхстаг, чтобы обвинить коммунистов. А тут максимум - кого-то из крестьян заденет. Я уверен, что политики в Турции - это не ангелы, а люди, умеющие жертвовать (особенно, если жертвовать нужно не собой).

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Can you see your assumption is rather close to absurd in practice?

Ну, если агент Запада говорит, что версия абсурдна, значит ей можно верить.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Ну, если агент Запада говорит, что версия абсурдна, значит ей можно верить.

Of course not. But if an agent of the East is saying it's true, that you can believe.

See? There's neither end nor conclusion to that kind of argumentation.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Турки сами могли подсказать "сирийской оппозиции": "ребята, стрельните вот сюда. Много народу не убъёте, а повод вам помочь дадите". Вы что, не знаете что такое провокация? Немцы не пожалели свой Рейхстаг, чтобы обвинить коммунистов. А тут максимум - кого-то из крестьян заденет.

Ok, I know what is provocation. Among the other things, provocation is something that works either way. If a round is landed on Akcakale, that is clearly a provocation. But, whose provocation is that? You're saying it was the opposition's provocation. Somebody could say, it was Assad's provocation. Someone else could say, it was Turkish provocation (yes, deploy some special Turkish troops across the border and fire their own town from Syria's border). Just to name a few: there could also be Iran's provocation, the US provocation, France provocation, China's provocation, and the last but not the least, the Antarctic penguins' provocation. There's no end to that and it could be twisted any way you want.

In my opinion, if those shells came not from the Syrian army loyal to Assad, there should be official denial and denouncing of the incident by Damascus. Walid al-Moualem should hold a press conference and clearly say something like: "Look, guys, it's not us, somebody's trying to provoke the war between Syria and Turkey." Was there that kind of response by the Syrian government or I'm missing something?

Originally Posted by Юрка

Я уверен, что политики в Турции - это не ангелы, а люди, умеющие жертвовать (особенно, если жертвовать нужно не собой).

In general, I agree with that.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

In my opinion, if those shells came not from the Syrian army loyal to Assad, there should be official denial and denouncing of the incident by Damascus. Walid al-Moualem should hold a press conference and clearly say something like: "Look, guys, it's not us, somebody's trying to provoke the war between Syria and Turkey." Was there that kind of response by the Syrian government or I'm missing something?

Ха-ха. Да, пропустили. Информационную войну Запада против Сирии.
Запад сначала заткнул Сирии рот, а потом жалуется, что нет информации из Сирии. Ну, не лицемерие?..

Originally Posted by Юрка

Ха-ха. Да, пропустили. Информационную войну Запада против Сирии.
Запад сначала заткнул Сирии рот, а потом жалуется, что нет информации из Сирии. Ну, не лицемерие?..

That is a pure propaganda. On October 2, 2012 Walid al-Moualem is able to convey his message that "the United States and its allies support terrorism in his country" Syria says US and allies support terrorism - Middle East - Al Jazeera English and when it comes to the shelling on October 4, 2012 he is suddenly quiet? The shelling is going on for a week and there was no way to even slip a short message like that through the cracks? That you blame on the information war?

"А чей это сайт?.." That is Al Jazeera, my friend, and not the BBC. Now, an intelligent guy like you (the school medals, the corporation, etc.) has nothing but to start making stuff up to support your point.. A real pity..

Propaganda is like a religion of a kind. If it can't explain something, it appeals to you with: "JUST BELIEVE! The explanation will come later!"