Thread: Stephen Cohen. Distorting Russia. How the American media misrepresent Putin...

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You're always wrong. Why do you reply to my posts. I think you should mind your own business or reply to the other posts like you do showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Please can you point out exactly what was ignorant or showed a lack of knowledge in what I wrote?

It is not at all impossible that I got something wrong - that's why I started with "correct me if I am wrong". I thought that some of your points were interesting and valid, that's why I wrote about it.

If you do not give an example, I will assume that your comment was simply intended as a personal insult.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

But, how are they doing the referendum? TEN DAYS to decide whether you are changing the entire country?!? The troops have guns and controlling who goes where or what people do. The Crimean authorties are airing Russian TV channels and scrutinizing whatever Ukrainian ones they allow. This is fair, right?!? Also, they have that stupid billboard of propaganda, choosing a 'Nazi' side or Russia. The entire thing is a sham.

There's no nazis. The 'far Right' in Ukraine has been bought by the American and Israeli Zionists. They were probably given money and promises of key Government positions with nice cozy incentives. These traitors don't give a **** about Ukraine or their fellow citizens. But, the lying Russian government portray them as Nazis so they can pick up their own slice before the pro-US/EU Elites set up shop there.

If a foreigner like myself can figure it out, how come Ukrainians can't? What is wrong with them? I would rather not be controlled but be poor and in charge of my own independence than sell out. And the BS in the other thread is just disgraceful. I've never seen this forum have so many liars and BS one after the other. I knew there were a lot of Putinoids here but it's ridiculous now. Their brains don't work right. Just because you criticize the Russian strategy, it doesn't mean you're 'pro-West.' But, their brains don't function properly.

I agree with Hanna's response to your post, in post #38. This is a logical discussion of the situation in Ukraine - Why all the drama?

About your 1st paragraph: Everything that's been happening in Ukraine has been fast. The "peaceful" demonstrators in Kiev didn't waste any time taking Independence Square. They even sent a lot of police to the hospitals - how fair was that? Then they staged a violent coup and took over the government. So now I have to ask: How would the US government respond if that happened in Washington DC? Here's a clue:
Woman slain after car chase from White House to Capitol

No. Angry, unarmed protestors don't get a warm reception in Washington DC. And now, the US media:
We have to use a satellite dish to pick up RT and the rest of the media is very anti-Russian. So, why wouldn't Crimea use the same tactics? - It's the American way. Btw, media control is also used heavily during US elections. I rarely see anything but Democrat or Republican ads. Oh, and don't forget, Democrats are Libtards and Republicans are Conservitards or Nazis. I've even seen people bashing campaign signs in other peoples yards.
So no, I don't see anything unusual about the non-Russian side being called Nazis. Again, it's the American way.

Imo, the troops in Crimea are using their guns to prevent lawlessness. I don't believe that has anything to do with the referendum. I mean, if I went to Crimea, I'd bring a gun to protect myself. People aren't very safe right now in Ukraine.

About your 2nd paragraph: I think it's obvious that NATO is trying to expand into Ukraine. And don't forget, the leaders in the interim government are all very wealthy - 2 are billionaires.
Politicians are almost always wealthy - especially in the US. Anyway, I don't understand the financial side of this. I only know that dad was working with a Hungarian broker when the USSR dissolved so he probably knows more about that issue.

About your 3rd paragraph: How can you figure it out? I think we can make educated guesses but there's too much people don't know. Since the interim Ukrainian leaders were already wealthy then they wouldn't be poor - unless they made bad investments.
Sorry, but I don't understand anything you posted after the first 3 sentences so I can't comment on the rest of the paragraph.

But I do know that America and the EU wouldn't suffer if all of Ukraine was annexed to Russia. I also know that President Putin and the Russian Parliament have very strong ties and interests in Ukraine. And I know that there is a strong cultural split in Ukraine.
Imo, Ukraine can only have peace when it becomes 2 countries - East and West Ukraine.
There's more I want to discuss but it's late and Current Events isn't the only thing I have to study tonight - I wish it was.

I feel sorry for the people of Eastern Ukraine. It seems they just ended up on the wrong side of the border, because of some administrative decision in the 1920s (?) I understand it as if they are ethnic Russians or people who speak Russian as their first language.

Apparently Putin said that Russia will only get involved "as a last resort". I am wondering how many activists in Eastern Ukraine have decided to do their best to provoke a "last resort" situation.

It must also be very frustrating for them to see how people on the other side of the border are getting better finances and don't have to worry about language issues. Whereas for them, the situation is volatile and they are not getting richer.

If Ukraine splits, then the only decent thing to do, after all the meddling, would be for the EU to to take Western Ukraine. However it seems clear to me, that the parts of Ukraine that the USA is interested in, is Crimea in the East. Exacty the areas where Russia will probably not allow any foreign influence, and where the people support Russia. I wonder if the EU and USA didn't know about people's loyalties in Ukraine, and the language / culture situation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I feel sorry for the people of Eastern Ukraine. It seems they just ended up on the wrong side of the border, because of some administrative decision in the 1920s (?) I understand it as if they are ethnic Russians or people who speak Russian as their first language.

Apparently Putin said that Russia will only get involved "as a last resort". I am wondering how many activists in Eastern Ukraine have decided to do their best to provoke a "last resort" situation.

It must also be very frustrating for them to see how people on the other side of the border are getting better finances and don't have to worry about language issues. Whereas for them, the situation is volatile and they are not getting richer.

If Ukraine splits, then the only decent thing to do, after all the meddling, would be for the EU to to take Western Ukraine. However it seems clear to me, that the parts of Ukraine that the USA is interested in, is Crimea in the East. Exacty the areas where Russia will probably not allow any foreign influence, and where the people support Russia. I wonder if the EU and USA didn't know about people's loyalties in Ukraine, and the language / culture situation.

What makes you think you can judge about people's loyalties in Ukraine? I am the only person you know here at forum from Eastern Ukraine, being Russian speaking and even ethnic Russian and I made my position clear. But you prefer to ignore the only direct evidence you have. I say: one should not be an intellectual giant to understand that the only purpose of invasion and most actions of Mr. Poo in Ukraine is to worsen our lives to ensure the loyality of Russian population to the Mr. Poo personally thus to preserve his power. And we don't need to listen to any "propaganda" for that - enough to have your everyday morning portion of chauvinism from conversations to Russian ctizens about Ukraine here at forum.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

... to ensure the loyality of Russian population to the Mr. Poo personally thus to preserve his power. ...

Я в шоке от некоторых фамилий: Официальный сайт Министерства культуры
Список открытый, можно прослеживать, кто ещё подпишется. Сейчас 103 человека.
Людей жалко: это ж под каким давлением нужно жить.

PS. Уже 104. Михалковых никого нет, Пугачёвой, Жванецкого, Дмитрия Быкова, Ефремова.

Originally Posted by Lampada

PS. Уже 104. Михалковых никого нет

За Михалкова не переживай! Этот.... режиссёр, как и его папа покойный, всегда колебался исключительно вместе с колебаниями генеральной линии партии.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

What makes you think you can judge about people's loyalties in Ukraine? I am the only person you know here at forum from Eastern Ukraine, being Russian speaking and even ethnic Russian and I made my position clear. But you prefer to ignore the only direct evidence you have. I say: one should not be an intellectual giant to understand that the only purpose of invasion and most actions of Mr. Poo in Ukraine is to worsen our lives to ensure the loyality of Russian population to the Mr. Poo personally thus to preserve his power. And we don't need to listen to any "propaganda" for that - enough to have your everyday morning portion of chauvinism from conversations to Russian ctizens about Ukraine here at forum.

Ok, I understand. I didn't know that you were from Eastern Ukraine. You never mentioned where you live, that I can recall. I don't read all the posts in Russian, it takes me too long. I thought you didn't want to say where you lived, and/or that you lived in some other part of Ukraine.

I totally respect your view, and in light of what you said, it seems that Russian TV is not reflecting the view of people in Eastern Ukraine in a balanced way.

They make out that practically everyone hates the new government in Kiev and are pro Russia. All you see is people with Russian flags and supporting Gubarev. While European media pretends that Eastern Ukraine doesn't exist. If you have flicked through Russian channels recently, you know what I mean.

My views were based completely on what I saw on Russian TV, can't understand everything they say, and it seems that I let myself be mislead!
Maybe Russian TV only covers the pro-Russian rallies and there are other rallies they ignore.

You know I respect your views, so this will make me re-think.

If you have the time, would you mind explaining:

1) In your town/city what do most people think. Same as you, or something different?
2) What would you like to see happening right now? In Kiev, in Moscow, in your own city and in Crimea?

Originally Posted by Hanna

1) In your town/city what do most people think. Same as you, or something different?
2) What would you like to see happening right now? In Kiev, in Moscow, in your own city and in Crimea?

Before Crimean invasion most people (like I am) were passively unhappy to both Yanukovich and protesters. After the runaway of Yanukovich people were happy that he is lost but quite sceptical about the protesters and the temporary government. But nobody was really afraid or angry like it was in 2004 - the situation is not exactly something new. Most common position is "all of them are bastards". Russian invasion changed much. For me it was unexpected: for some reason I was sure that we are safe form that side like you feel sure now that Sweden is safe from foreign invasion. Now most people afraid of the possible war and disorders - that is the most common emotion. We have some active supporters of the Kiev protesters but they are not the majority. What we have not is an imaginary loyalty to Russia. Most people understand well that Putin is merely a bastard resolving his own problems on our account. Most people are not ready to burn Russian tanks but we don't expect anything good from the East and we don't need a foreign military supports against the rest of Ukraine whatever our disagreements are. That is an internal business.

I don't want to discuss what I'd like to see happening somewhere else... Maybe my emotions are too strong or I am too evil, and anyway I don't want to be accused in extremism. Let us say I don't wish anything good to Russia now.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Before Crimean invasion most people (like I am) were passively unhappy to both Yanukovich and protesters. After the runaway of Yanukovich people were happy that he is lost but quite sceptical about the protesters and the temporary government. But nobody was really afraid or angry like it was in 2004 - the situation is not exactly something new. Most common position is "all of them are bastards". Russian invasion changed much. For me it was unexpected: for some reason I was sure that we are safe form that side like you feel sure now that Sweden is safe from foreign invasion. Now most people afraid of the possible war and disorders - that is the most common emotion. We have some active supporters of the Kiev protesters but they are not the majority. What we have not is an imaginary loyalty to Russia. Most people understand well that Putin is merely a bastard resolving his own problems on our account. Most people are not ready to burn Russian tanks but we don't expect anything good from the East and we don't need a foreign military supports against the rest of Ukraine whatever our disagreements are. That is an internal business.

I don't want to discuss what I'd like to see happening somewhere else... Maybe my emotions are too strong or I am too evil, and anyway I don't want to be accused in extremism. Let us say I don't wish anything good to Russia now.

Thanks, that was really interesting.
I know you don't visit the forum to discuss politics, mainly, so it's nice that you made an exception when your area is in the focus of current events.

And I don't think anybody has the right to accuse you of extremism in regards to events in your own country!

When you say "invasion", do you mean those guys with "unmarked" uniforms, in Crimea? Or something else?

I was so annoyed with the way Western media reports this, that I turned to Russian TV. I guess I was too busy trying to understand what they were saying, to be critical... I really thought their pictures of Eastern Ukrainians waving Russian flags more or less showed the full picture. Your post made me see that I was taken in by a misleading presentation.

Who is Gubarev and what happened with him? What is your view of him and why do some people like him - he's an oligarch!?

If your choice is between customs union with Russia and the "Eurasian Union" that Putin wants..... or EUs promises about closer co-operation and possible membership --- which do you prefer, and why?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Who is Gubarev and what happened with him? What is your view of him and why do some people like him - he's an oligarch!?

If your choice is between customs union with Russia and the "Eurasian Union" that Putin wants..... or EUs promises about closer co-operation and possible membership --- which do you prefer, and why?

Gubarev is a kind of clown who used temporary disability of authorities to make a performance. Some people can say that he is a kind of traitor who support foring military invasion, but I believe he is just an insane freak. I don't know who loves him. Maybe some guys enjoying disorders and revolutions? Well, they say, if Kiev enjoys revolution why can't we? Let's play! Don't afraid, nobody will go against us as they afraid of Russian militaries on the border!

Well, as for "Eurasian Union" I understood well the actions of Yanukovich. Ukraine needed money immediately to save from being bankrupt and Yanukovich took money from Putin while Europe proposed no immediate income and questionable long-term effects. But now I believe we should avoid any kind of cooperation with Russia as it is proved to be really dangerous. We are not rich enough to support such kind of cooperation.

"Подписанты"! Ой, как смешно!










Николай Бурляев (справа):

Originally Posted by Lampada

"Подписанты"! Ой, как смешно!

Табаков, Баталов, Боярский... Ну ладно Говорухин - он по жизни с тяжелыми тараканами при всем моем к нему уважении и восхищении... Прочие же... нет, я могу понять, если кто-то пересмотрел ящика на старости лет и начал заявлять всякое... Но когда вот так вот тупо не свое мнение, откуда бы оно не проистекало, а "поддерживаю действия"... Действительно, мне трудно объяснить это чем-то, кроме желания не подставлять свой театр/подчиненных/фонд/родственников... Иногда ведь расписываться не нужно - достаточно просто промолчать, не заявить "это без меня расписались, не спрашивая". Были прецеденты, но я не думал, что все настолько серьезно.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Были прецеденты, но я не думал, что все настолько серьезно.

Чего вы хотите? У нас прикормленная элита. Они давно уже поняли, что наличие активной гражданской позиции (tm) негативно отражается на творческих перспективах. Вернее, не само наличие, а наличие неправильной гражданской позиции. Вопрос "с кем вы, мастера культуры" уже давно решён и снят с повестки дня.
Кроме того, я вообще не сильно понимаю смысла вот таких вот подписных листов. Ну, разве что - декларация о благонадёжности. А так - пусть сеют разумное, доброе вечное.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ой, как смешно!

И что тут смешного? Может объясните, вместе посмеемся.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

И что тут смешного? Может объясните, вместе посмеемся.

Да, не так уж и смешно. Я передумала, не будем вместе смеяться.

@ it-ogo:
Thanks for the input. I knew you lived in Ukraine but I didn't know where and I didn't know you were ethnic Russian. I'm not surprised by your comments in posts #48 and #50. I have a friend that lives in Ecuador and they have uprisings there too. He was moving from Quito when the last uprising happened but fortunately the opposition wasn't that hostile. Now he lives in Ambato with all the ash from the Tungurahua eruptions. Fun... not.
It's probably a common misconception that all ethnic Russians that live in Ukraine are loyal Russians. That's like saying that all British people that live in America are loyal Brits. I can't imagine what it's like living in Ukraine but your posts really help.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Я передумала, не будем вместе смеяться.

И то верно. Над собой смеяться не очень весело. Особенно когда выставляешь фотографии актеров в нацисткой форме, которые играют советских разведчиков.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

И то верно. Над собой смеяться не очень весело. Особенно когда выставляешь фотографии актеров в нацисткой форме, которые играют советских разведчиков.

Весело! И над собой посмеяться весело, и над другими.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

И что тут смешного? Может объясните, вместе посмеемся.

Она забыла, что ее любимому Басилашвили всегда удавалось прекрасно играть сволочей.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

It's probably a common misconception that all ethnic Russians that live in Ukraine are loyal Russians. That's like saying that all British people that live in America are loyal Brits. I can't imagine what it's like living in Ukraine but your posts really help.

Basically "ethnic Russian" like myself here in Donbass is rather uncommon phenomenon. According to the statistics here we have somewhere about 40% Russians and 60% Ukrainians but in fact it means that a randoomly taken person has 40% of Russian ancestors and 60% of Ukrainian ones. You see, people here have several generations of marriages without giving a fax to anyone's ethnic background. And all the Ukrainian disorders were about building the state, not about anyone's ethnicity. They are Russian authorities who try to promote savage ethnic chauvinistic dimension to the problem.