Thread: Stephen Cohen. Distorting Russia. How the American media misrepresent Putin...

Originally Posted by Ramil

There is a Russian idiom 'метать бисер перед свиньями' (to cast pearl before pigs).

Actually it is a quotation from the Bible. It's Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount to be exact.
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
«Не давайте святыни псам и не бросайте жемчуга вашего перед свиньями, чтобы они не попрали его ногами своими и, обратившись, не растерзали вас».
Alas, he was crucified by the people he was preaching, healing, feeding and quenching and his main disciple renounced him three times.
So he himself contradicted this wisdom, for if there is one reasonable person ready to understand the value of the pearls in a throng of swines, maybe it's worth casting?

And Russian tourists storming local Ukrainian administrations while Russian Militaries are ready to protect them.

There are on-line web-cameras on the border crossing points, for example, this one monitors the main border crossing point Nekhoteevka-Goptovka which is the biggest such a point in Belgorod region and is situated on the road leading from Moscow to Kharkov:
Граница Online Нехотеевка
As you can see it's empty right now. In order to bring a 10-thousand crowd for making "disorders" in Kharkov Russians must have been used at least a hundred buses provided each bus contained a hundred persons. I've been periodically watching this camera for a few days - I've noticed no perceptible activity on this boarder-crossing point.
I also tried to find a single volunteers enlisting point in my native city which is right half-way between Moscow and Kharkov - no luck. Such things simply don't exist. Recent days people were busy with their jobs and buying presents for their women for the celebration of the Women's day, they don't have any reason to go invading Kharkov.
Also think about accommodations where all this "tourists" have to stay. Is there any tents, field-kitchens, as in Kiev's Maidan? There's nothing - nor in Kharkov nor in Donetsk nor in Lugansk which can be explained by the only reasonable presumption that most of those demonstrators are local inhabitants.
Of course nobody can prevent individual persons to cross the border on the legal basis and take part in whatever activities they like, but it's their own personal responsibility - no state or civic institute can be blamed for this.
By the way, I couldn't find such on-line cameras on the Ukrainian side of the border. Why?

I said in another unrelated thread that the US had done something I consider unforgivable. The last 2 paragraphs in the OP explain it better than I can. When people are constantly lied to and given obvious misinformation, it's impossible to find anything to believe in.
My family is not anti-Russian but so many people in the US are. And maybe I coulda been fooled but they made one huge mistake - In real-life, nobody's pure good and nobody's pure-evil. I've seen words like "thug" and "cronie" in the news before but never as much as now. The OP is totally dead on. The western media's more like pep talks and cheerleaders at a football game cause there's very little news about what's really happening.

But what's the answer? When I try to explain what I know about Ukraine and Russia, most Americans just label me "commie". Somebody even asked me which I supported, the US or Putin - I told them I only supported the truth. Sometimes I don't think they wanna learn anything, they just want the US to win everything. Imo, that's the wrong kind of thinking cause no country should have everything.
Well, maybe I'm just lucky cause I can speed-read and my family is always finding new info about what's happening in Russia and Ukraine.
I do know this - Friendship isn't based on hate and fear and the US will never have friendly relations with Russia or Ukraine till it learns what friendship means.

About the International Business district in Moscow. I know exactly where that is and those buildings are awesome! I really like the color schemes too! Some other stuff I like in Moscow are Novy Arbat and the GUM department store. Sometimes I like old architecture (if it looks really wicked) and I like castles too. But mostly I'm all over the new stuff.

I think I should explain what exactly media is for any politician, especially the American one. You only need media for one and only one thing - to justify the budget expences before the tax-payers and keep your approval rating high. Period. The simpler are the ways to achieve that - the better. Wanting anything else from the media - especially if you ARE NOT a politician is ridiculous.

The Ukraine situation is turning me into almost as big a cynic as Ramil.

It just shows you can sell anything you want to Europeans and Americans. Even things that are happening on our own continent, an hours flight from Berlin or Geneva.
Some very strong forces wants to control what happens in Ukraine at almost ANY price.

And while Russian TV is more truthful they are ignoring some very important questions, such as what exactly Russia will actually do, when Crimea votes "Yes" and some issues about who is allowed to protest or demonstrate about things, and when.

Many insane people in Western Europe seems to get a kick out of hating Russia, some kind of bizarre Cold War fake nostalgia or attempt at feeling superior. They actually WANT to believe propaganda and don't want to hear the other side of the story,.
People too young to remember the Cold War and the incredibly eerie vibes from that era.

Another thing is that the tactics today are much creepier and more sophisticated than back then. Psy-ops, black ops, internet surveillance and manipulation of online opinion with some very underhand mehtods.

PS - If anyone is brave enough to watch PressTV, they have a very revealing expose about how Europeans were manipulated about Ukraine beyond anything we ever experienced before.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It just shows you can sell anything you want to Europeans and Americans.

Not just Europeans and Americans - all people. This is universal.

Originally Posted by Hanna

And while Russian TV is more truthful

Actually, they are not.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Actually it is a quotation from the Bible. It's Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount to be exact.
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
«Не давайте святыни псам и не бросайте жемчуга вашего перед свиньями, чтобы они не попрали его ногами своими и, обратившись, не растерзали вас».
Alas, he was crucified by the people he was preaching, healing, feeding and quenching and his main disciple renounced him three times.
So he himself contradicted this wisdom, for if there is one reasonable person ready to understand the value of the pearls in a throng of swines, maybe it's worth casting?


There are on-line web-cameras on the border crossing points, for example, this one monitors the main border crossing point Nekhoteevka-Goptovka which is the biggest such a point in Belgorod region and is situated on the road leading from Moscow to Kharkov:
Граница Online Нехотеевка
As you can see it's empty right now. In order to bring a 10-thousand crowd for making "disorders" in Kharkov Russians must have been used at least a hundred buses provided each bus contained a hundred persons. I've been periodically watching this camera for a few days - I've noticed no perceptible activity on this boarder-crossing point.
I also tried to find a single volunteers enlisting point in my native city which is right half-way between Moscow and Kharkov - no luck. Such things simply don't exist. Recent days people were busy with their jobs and buying presents for their women for the celebration of the Women's day, they don't have any reason to go invading Kharkov.
Also think about accommodations where all this "tourists" have to stay. Is there any tents, field-kitchens, as in Kiev's Maidan? There's nothing - nor in Kharkov nor in Donetsk nor in Lugansk which can be explained by the only reasonable presumption that most of those demonstrators are local inhabitants.
Of course nobody can prevent individual persons to cross the border on the legal basis and take part in whatever activities they like, but it's their own personal responsibility - no state or civic institute can be blamed for this.
By the way, I couldn't find such on-line cameras on the Ukrainian side of the border. Why?

Nice and interesting post, Serge!
They won't let you into Ukraine though. I watched Rossiya 24 and they said that Ukraine denies entry to any Russian who looks like they might plan to participate in the protests. Probably just as well.

I think it's a bit sad that Russia takes so much interest in Crimea, but pays less attention to the less glamorous cities in Eastern Ukraine. These people have been railroaded for sure. Apparently that region is what keeps the Ukrainian economy afloat.... at the very least they deserve democratic representation in Kiev. And all people anywhere, deserve the right to speak their native language in the area where they were born.

They won't let you into Ukraine though. I watched Rossiya 24 and they said that Ukraine denies entry to any Russian who looks like they might plan to participate in the protests. Probably just as well.

I don't think it's true. I've heard they check more thoroughly the documents and luggage but I don't think they prevent anybody to cross the border unless there are some serious reasons (you are a criminal of some kind and they found your name in their list). By the way, I agree with Ramil that the Russian media are also involved in brain-washing. A few days ago they said there are hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees crossing the border, but I didn't notice them either.

I think it's a bit sad that Russia takes so much interest in Crimea, but pays less attention to the less glamorous cities in Eastern Ukraine.

They say Kharkov is a very beautiful city with a great opera theater and it has the biggest square in Europe. My father (ethnic Ukrainian by the way) studied in Kharkov polytechnic university. He is very fond of these memories.
What a shame I missed the opportunity to see the biggest square of Europe free of charge (joke).

Originally Posted by SergeMak

I agree with Ramil that the Russian media are also involved in brain-washing. A few days ago they said there are hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees crossing the border, but I didn't notice them either.

Yes, Russia Today wrote about it. The figures they gave was 650,000 "refugees".
But you know, "there are lies, damned lies and statistics"
Maybe they counted everybody who crossed the border from Ukraine to Russia since the troubles started, or something like that.

I don't think Russian media deliberately lies. I think they ignore some news, and play with statistics.
As for Western media, it's really no better, and with some stories, it's worse. Just different angles.

From watching Vesti TV, I get the impression that every town in Russia, practically, had a support rally for Ukraine and Crimea, with people chanting slogans. Is that right? Also, Moscow seems to have held a big concert.

The difference between Russian coverage of this, and Ukrainian coverage, is that for Russia, it is their relatives, their family, old friends, history and culture at stake.
That's why I trust Russia more in this, having nobler purposes.

For Western media it's nothing but the old Russophobia, a desire to control Ukraine and the possibility of a NATO base in Crimea. It's all coming from Washington - who in Western Europe even cares about Ukraine or Crimea?! Almost nobody. And all as for controlling it, all major countries already had a go at that, and eventually failed.... As we know!

The Black Sea is not a traditional sphere of influence for any of the big European countries. It's about Washington's agenda with Russia, and the Ukrainians are the pawns and victims. The Western Ukrainians have been duped. The EU can't, won't and doesn't even want to deliver half of what it's promising.
The EU is a useful idiot for America in this.

Maybe they counted everybody who crossed the border from Ukraine to Russia since the troubles started, or something like that.

Yes they say it's the number of people who abandoned Ukraine during 2 last months.
Actually you were probably right about Ukrainian border-guards denying some Russians to cross the border. Rusnovosti.ru said that 342 Russian citizens were denied the right of entry into Ukraine for the last 24 hours. 342 гражданина . I just wonder what a criterion they use to decide whether a certain citizen can be a provocateur or not? I don't think it's a legitimate procedure.

The thing I love about the Crimea situation is that their own manipulation backfired at them!
It's a cynical way to look at things, but it's not very personal to me. I don't know anybody in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. It just pisses me off that they dared to get involved in the internal business of a sovereign European nation.
SO
Ukrainian leader backed from the EUs poor offer, and turned to Russia.
They decided to take Yanukovich down, using his own shortages as a leader, the extreme and easily manipulated parts of the Ukrainian population and every dirty trick in the propaganda handbook....

Serves them b.....y well right, if all they will end up with is the poor under-developed rural Western Ukraine which is exactly the type of country that the EU does NOT want, and the USA doesn't give a damn about since it doesn't border Russia or the Black Sea.

While the bits that they DO want (Crimea and Eastern Ukraine) declare independence or go to Russia.
All this listening to Russian TV has inspired me to start studying Russian again.
I want to go hiking on Crimea. Same as Lampada did. Saw some pictures of it, it's absolutely gorgeous.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Not just Europeans and Americans - all people. This is universal.

Actually, they are not.

^ True. But if you read 6 stories about a dog and they all say the dog was brown, then the dog was probably brown. If only 2 stories said the dog bites then you still don't really know if it bites... but you can be sure it was brown. That's how I read news.
In 2011, the US refused to cooperate with Russia in a proposed "Defense Shield" project. Instead, they continued the European Missile Defense project by installing land and sea missile bases in NATO countries.
NATO missile defence system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When the US proposed setting up long-range missile defense interceptors and equipment in Poland and the Czech Republic, Russia responded by proposing to install Iskander surface to surface missiles in Kaliningrad. President Obama backed down.
President Putin offered Ukraine a third alternative - the chance to retain ties with Russia and also seek economic agreements in the west. That proposal was very logical but it was rejected. If Ukraine retained ties to Russia, it would block possible NATO membership.
The conditions of the IMF loan ore very pro-NATO and Crimea has a vital Russian Naval base. That base could come under NATO control if Crimea remains a part of Ukraine.

The conflict in Ukraine isn't about the people, history, or culture. It's a deadly game of Military strategy. If Russia can keep Crimea, it will be an important strategic victory for Russia. Keeping parts of eastern Ukraine would be helpful too.
The NATO defense bases in Europe are damaging Russia's ability to defend itself. It's at a critical point now and the Ukrainian crisis is making it worse. Russia will be forced to respond. In a recent news article, the Russian Minister of Defense threatened to halt International Arms Inspections in Russia if the US imposed sanctions. That would be one solution to the problem since it would allow Russia to improve it's defense capabilities. Another article suggested that Russia could be forced to make pre-emptive strikes on NATO defense bases. Imo, the 1st alternative is more likely.
What's obvious is that NATO has become a real threat to Russian security and wants to increase that threat in Ukraine. To support a US/EU friendly government in Ukraine, the governments need to get support from the people in their own countries. In the US, the government is getting that approval using the media. That alone proves to me that the American media is nothing but a mouthpiece for Washington DC.
All the facts I've found (in eastern and western sources) prove that the Ukraine crisis is a NATO aggression and it's goal is to tighten it's grip on Russia. Those facts are undeniable and obvious. If Russia wants to survive, it will have to respond.
Btw, the one thing I admire most about Russia is it's refusal to sell out to the west - Just another reason I respect and support President Putin.

The NATO defense bases are the kind of fear that creates the anti-Russian propaganda in the US media. The west is obviously opposed to friendly relations with Russia so it shouldn't expect any friendly responses from Moscow.
It's more than sad that the Ukrainian people have to suffer and die because of this fear but it's very likely that the situation will only get worse.

"If Russia can keep Crimea, it will be an important strategic victory for Russia. Keeping parts of eastern Ukraine would be helpful too.'
Why stop there? Go for the whole kit and kaboodle. Ukraine SSR was part of the Soviet Union so Putin can just say I'm taking it back? Why not? Many morons say that Russia was not occupying Crimea yet they had troops there. Oh, they were there all along as they have navy ships and ports there. Right. That's why when any Ukrainian personnel show up, Russian troops fire warning shots? Also, they started replacing governors with Kremlin friendly (Russia-controlled) individuals and unplugging all the Ukrainian channels and instead, airing Russian State (Kremlin-fed) tv channels like Russia 1, NTV etc. etc.

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/09/stop...dMgE8zn9jFkKIQ

Ukraine is occupied either way. By the U.S./Israeli-led organizations and their lackeys in Ukraine, especially. Most Ukrainians just haven't realized it yet.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

"If Russia can keep Crimea, it will be an important strategic victory for Russia. Keeping parts of eastern Ukraine would be helpful too.'
Why stop there? Go for the whole kit and kaboodle. Ukraine SSR was part of the Soviet Union so Putin can just say I'm taking it back? Why not? Many morons say that Russia was not occupying Crimea yet they had troops there. Oh, they were there all along as they have navy ships and ports there. Right. That's why when any Ukrainian personnel show up, Russian troops fire warning shots? Also, they started replacing governors with Kremlin friendly (Russia-controlled) individuals and unplugging all the Ukrainian channels and instead, airing Russian State (Kremlin-fed) tv channels like Russia 1, NTV etc. etc.

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/09/stop...dMgE8zn9jFkKIQ

Ukraine is occupied either way. By the U.S./Israeli-led organizations and their lackeys in Ukraine, especially. Most Ukrainians just haven't realized it yet.

Exactly. Crimea's 58% Russian so it wasn't difficult for President Putin to get that referendum. The only question that remains is what other parts of Ukraine Russia will claim before NATO claims the rest. Ukraine could easily be one of the most expensive bankrupt countries on the market.
But the worst part is the possibility of a new arms race. That would mean proliferation of nuclear weapons in every country which would make the world even more dangerous and seriously damage every economy. How much more fear can the planet afford?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Exactly. Crimea's 58% Russian so it wasn't difficult for President Putin to get that referendum. The only question that remains is what other parts of Ukraine Russia will claim before NATO claims the rest. Ukraine could easily be one of the most expensive bankrupt countries on the market.
But the worst part is the possibility of a new arms race. That would mean proliferation of nuclear weapons in every country which would make the world even more dangerous and seriously damage every economy. How much more fear can the planet afford?

But, how are they doing the referendum? TEN DAYS to decide whether you are changing the entire country?!? The troops have guns and controlling who goes where or what people do. The Crimean authorties are airing Russian TV channels and scrutinizing whatever Ukrainian ones they allow. This is fair, right?!? Also, they have that stupid billboard of propaganda, choosing a 'Nazi' side or Russia. The entire thing is a sham.

There's no nazis. The 'far Right' in Ukraine has been bought by the American and Israeli Zionists. They were probably given money and promises of key Government positions with nice cozy incentives. These traitors don't give a **** about Ukraine or their fellow citizens. But, the lying Russian government portray them as Nazis so they can pick up their own slice before the pro-US/EU Elites set up shop there.

If a foreigner like myself can figure it out, how come Ukrainians can't? What is wrong with them? I would rather not be controlled but be poor and in charge of my own independence than sell out. And the BS in the other thread is just disgraceful. I've never seen this forum have so many liars and BS one after the other. I knew there were a lot of Putinoids here but it's ridiculous now. Their brains don't work right. Just because you criticize the Russian strategy, it doesn't mean you're 'pro-West.' But, their brains don't function properly.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

But, how are they doing the referendum? TEN DAYS to decide whether you are changing the entire country?!? The troops have guns and controlling who goes where or what people do. The Crimean authorties are airing Russian TV channels and scrutinizing whatever Ukrainian ones they allow. This is fair, right?!? Also, they have that stupid billboard of propaganda, choosing a 'Nazi' side or Russia. The entire thing is a sham.

There's no nazis. The 'far Right' in Ukraine has been bought by the American and Israeli Zionists. They were probably given money and promises of key Government positions with nice cozy incentives. These traitors don't give a **** about Ukraine or their fellow citizens. But, the lying Russian government portray them as Nazis so they can pick up their own slice before the pro-US/EU Elites set up shop there.

If a foreigner like myself can figure it out, how come Ukrainians can't? What is wrong with them? I would rather not be controlled but be poor and in charge of my own independence than sell out. And the BS in the other thread is just disgraceful. I've never seen this forum have so many liars and BS one after the other. I knew there were a lot of Putinoids here but it's ridiculous now. Their brains don't work right. Just because you criticize the Russian strategy, it doesn't mean you're 'pro-West.' But, their brains don't function properly.

You have to stop being judgmental here because you sound offensive and it's forbidden on this forum. Consider it as a warning.

Originally Posted by Lampada

You have to stop being judgmental here because you sound offensive and it's forbidden on this forum. Consider it as a warning.

I am asking how they reach their opinion. It seems irrational to me.

Edit: no problem. It won't matter anyway - there are no other opinions on here.

14Russian - I don't think most people here are "Putinoids", least of all our Russian friends who have to live in a country governed by Putin and have their own eyes to see with...

The man has many faults. However in this situation I think the people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are prepared to live with Putin and his faults, rather than continue with the Ukrainian circus of revolutions, corruption, extremists, poverty and language discrimination. Russia offers them some hope and a better chance in most of these respects. You have to be quite dumb to put any trust in the EU as a saviour right now, look at Greece and Romania... How countries end up after the US meddles is visible for all to see in Libya, Syria and Iraq just for starters.

The problems in Russia is a different story, but you can't deny that the quality of life in Russia has improved dramatically under Putin, there hasn't been any major instability, Russians have stopped hating their country and emigrating en masse.

I don't think I would vote for Putin if I was Russian, and I am not sure if it even matters very much what people vote for in Russia.... (based on some allegations here on MR) But even if Putin is a dictator, you can do A LOT worse than somebody who improves living standards, keeps order without being completely tyrannical and leaves people alone do do and say what they like. He's got a lot of work to do on corruption, infrastructure and poverty, but I don't think he is denying that.

And Russia is not the only country where the same party wins every election. It happens in other so called democratic countries too, for example Japan. They too have problems with corruption and criminality.

I also believe that if he REALLY messed up, it's not beyond the Russians to get rid of him.
So let's leave it to them to worry about him.

So I will sum up 14Russians points in a non-offensive way...
I gave some answers as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong!

"Why does the referendum have to take place so soon? "
The longer they wait, the longer other forces have to plan their response in case of a Yes vote. The presidential election is in May, they need to do it long before that. Plus, things tend to happen pretty fast in this part of the world, don't they? It's just a general trend. It's also more democratic, since you don't leave too much time for an orchestrated PR campaign and expensivew manipulation of the public opinion. Compare with the Scotland referendum where everybody knows what the outcome will be, and what will happen if opinion swings in the time leading up to the referendum.

"Are alternative viewpoints currently being censored in Crimea? Why did Ukrainian TV get banned and Russian channels appeared in their place? "
I think this is a bit suspicious. This will be used to discredit the referendum. Seems like a Soviet mindset. I am sure they have an explanation, but not too sure the answer would cut the muster. However, the people in Crimea have the internet and radio so they can still access alternative viewpoints. I believe it's a mistake by the Crimean parliament to do this though.

"Isn't it extremely simplified and quite brutal agitation to claim that staying with Ukraine equals Nazism? "
I too think that banner is ridiculous and this line of reasoning overly simplistic and possibly false. However it seems that this is considered fair game by people in that part of the world. Who knows what the other side will say! Maybe that's what you need to do, to get your message across in this culture. It might be what people are expecting. But I think it's a bit hard to stomach too.

"The 'far Right' in Ukraine has been bought by the American and Israeli Zionists. They were probably given money and promises..."
No, they have a tradition of radical nationalism there, as a reaction against Communism and Russia. And actual Nazism during the war. Also, bear in mind that people in Eastern Europe have not been through the same Politically Correct brainwashing as you and I for instance. So radical nationalism is not quite as shocking to the average person there, as it is to us. It's visible in places like Hungary, East Germany and Poland, not just Ukraine. Something tells me you don't care much for the PC agenda yourself.... Why would Zionists care about Ukraine? Bankers, Corporations and NATO/USA, yes. But Zionists? Seriously? As for Russia - sure. Ukraine is their little defense buffer against Europe and it's too bad for the Ukrainians that this is the case. Russia lost almost all its other buffers, so of course they care about one of the few ones remaining... Personally I still think Moscow cares a lot more about Ukraine and its population than Brussels does. Just for starters, half of Russia seems to have family there, or go there on holiday. Greece shows us that the EU is quite happy to let even long-standing members really suffer. So why would they care about UA any more?

"I would rather not be controlled but be poor and in charge of my own independence than sell out. How come the Ukrainians don't feel this way? "
How poor have you actually been in your life? I think people in Ukraine know more about poverty and its effects than you do.

Originally Posted by Hanna

So I will sum up 14Russians points in a non-offensive way...
I gave some answers as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong!

You're always wrong. Why do you reply to my posts. I think you should mind your own business or reply to the other posts like you do showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You're always wrong. Why do you reply to my posts. I think you should mind your own business or reply to the other posts like you do showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge.

You are one hopeless meany.