They succeeded with this anyway though. At least with the illusion of democracy.Originally Posted by Lampada
By propaganda; convincing the majority that there really is democracy
keeping two parties to choose from that are almost identical when viewed from a distance
If you have any personal experience or insight, then by all means explain it here, including what you base your information on.
Else I can only conclude that you are continuing your mission to troll every comment I make without having anything substantial to add.
Hint - if you have nothing new or constructive to add to the discussion, and you are not prepared to share any personal experiences to support your statements, then your comments are of no interest to anyone. Particularly not if your main objective is to insult or provoke another forum member.
В СССР верили, что справедливость в социализме.
В США верят, что справедливость в демократии.
Один Карл Маркс знал, что справедливости не будет, если человек производит больше, чем может потребить. Лишнее всегда можно отнять и перераспределить. Справедливость есть только у примитивных племён, так как они не берут от природы лишнего.
Но в США не читали Маркса, поэтому тычут нам своей фишкой.
1. Справедливости будет еще меньше если человек производит меньше чем потребляет: к природной алчности (с которой в любом случае ничего не сделаешь) добавляется еще и бедность.
2. Ваш тезис о производстве и потреблении (или не ваш, но который как я понял вы поддерживаете) идет вразрез с негативным отношением к потребительской модели, присущим большинству русских с левыми взглядами, к которым я небезосновательно причислял вас, в чем подвох? =))
I should have thought about that. Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."Yes, wasted, the same happens when engineers at Sony and Panasonic concurrently try to enhance the same technology. At first glance, it seems, that it does not make a sense: they could union efforts and complete the task better and faster. In reality... if the only party is not afraid anything, then it could stay in relaxed state, and without serious efforts, the things can only be getting worse.
Предоставленные сами себе события имеют тенденцию развиваться от плохого к худшему. (Как это будет по-английски?)
Of course, if 2 parties are sure that they will last forever, then there is a similar problem.
Regarding modern Russia. For me, nothing has changed. Yeltsin retired when he was "tired". Our governor had been sitting for 20 years before he got tired, Putin will be in power as long as he wishes, too. They all are Tsars, be them local or nation-wide. Only aliens could plan here "a government that cares about the people and listens".
@ iCake:
The same problem is in the US too. That's why I think that living in Russia wouldn't be different than living in the US. Yeah, there would be different issues but the way the government deals with the issues would be the same.
What would be different is the people, the space program, and snow. We almost never get any snow here.
Examples in the US:
1. The city has been calling my parents about a vote for an increase in utility rates. The vote won't be till this weekend but our utility bill already went up by about $12. The last time they wanted an increase, they said they needed to build a new water treatment facility. They never built it. They used the money to help build a new golf course and keep it watered.
Also, the people voted against that increase so they increased the rate anyway. If the rate increase loses this time, it will still be increased.
2. There are lots of people in the US working for a lot less than minimum wage. That wage only applies to some jobs and even those employers can cheat.
3. The US and the State can both tax tobacco. Our State taxed it twice. When some citizens complained and wanted to know why they doubled the tax, the State government just said "because we can.".
4. Everybody wants the corporations to label GMO products, especially foods. Ain't gonna happen.
The US government only listens to the people if they agree with them on issues. And dad said that the Democratic and Republican parties are the same party. The only difference is some small social issues. They both have the same agendas.
Oh, and people have to buy a permit to have a protest and they can refuse to give them a permit. That permit tells them how many people can be at the protest, where the protest can happen, and how many people can be there. If anyone breaks any of those rules then they will be arrested. And even if they don't break the rules, they can still get pepper sprayed by the police. It's dangerous to get very close to a protest cause the police can call you a protester and spray you.
So maybe there aren't really any democracies anyway.
@ Lampada:
Our country thinks it has both. Great wealth in the hands of a few PLUS a democracy.
@ Юрка:
I've never read anything by Karl Marx. What books did he write?
Он с Фридрихом Энгельсом много чего написал. Но знакомиться с его трудами нужно наверное, начиная с "Манифеста коммунистической партии" (1848 ). Мы читали его ещё в средней школе. Помню, что книжка небольшая, а текст несложный.
LOL.
Oh yes, what a sham. Every five years we get to choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Or more appropriately perhaps, between plague and cholera.
And to think that 70% of French decisions are actually Brussels-made... I'm so thrilled to exercise my voting right!
Talk about democracy. Everywhere you turn it's just a self-perpetuating farce wherein an elite gets voted in at regular intervals, thanks to state-controlled media. I'm no expert, but it is my understanding that in the USA you cannot even hope to be in the running unless you're loaded or sponsored. Election costs are just prohibitive. (If I could be proved wrong, I'd welcome the news.) As for Russia, everyone knows Putin comes from the KGB. Need I say more? You can sense an iron fist from here (whether for good or ill, that's not for me to tell).
Also, Russia seems very united. It wouldn't be that way in France, which tends to create conflicts of interest and general ill-feeling. Racial minorities (but this is very politically incorrect, will I get censored?) far outweigh the supposed white catholic majority, the public sector has been at variance with the private sector for decades, unions and employers are at daggers drawn and after epic street protests, homosexuals have recently been allowed to marry... in short, when the people are so divided, can they still rule? I don't think so. I think they're under a yoke, now more than ever.
Divide and conquer!
Really, is that how people view it? Do you have any examples...?
There are some really sinister conspiracy theories about the EU, the Euro, and plans for a USA-like federation in Europe, pushed through on the notion that "we must save the Euro, and only Brussels can control the Euro." So basically, not giving people a choice about it. EU is beginning to feel increasingly sinister. I used to love the idealism about it, but right now it feels like it's all about the money. I'm concerned about the issues about the lack of democracy on the decisions.
Just look at Greece, they are essentially not running their own country any more. Brussels and the IMF is. Same thing happened in Latvia a few years ago, but it's smaller so nobody noticed. And who's next....
Democracy or no democracy, many who lived in the late days of the USSR view it with nostalgia. If you were a writer, a political activist, an artist, open disagreement was a no-no, but for Joe Public (or the Russian equivalent... say, Иван Иванович Иванов) what difference could it make? They toed the line, got on with their lives and picking mushrooms in the forest... one would suspect interactions with the government were few and far between - and the fewer and further between, the better.
At least, there was no pretence, no façade. Nowadays the pressure from above is much more insidious. Democracy is just a warped term they shove down our throats so that we may bow and accept the political situation, as it is supposedly of our own making.
Now I'm left wondering if Hanna visited Saudi Arabia, China or North Korea.
I respect and am enthusiastic about Greece as a great tourist destination, but the way they run their economy can just blow anyone's mind! They took a 140 billion euro loan and just spent it for their internal purposes having made not a single penny! Not only did they have no intent to ever repay it, they started to request for more loans to keep their economy afloat! That is truly mind-blowing, and in that situation, Brussels making some decisions for them doesn't even seem particularly bad.
Here is what happened. They got scr%wed by the Banksters and everyone from the Spiegel, to BBC, RT and Washington Post knows it. Not to mention independent bloggers who first flagged it. We've said it here many times.
Goldman Sachs faces scrutiny over Greek debt swap | Business | theguardian.com
Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Goldman Sachs: the Greek connection - Business News - Business - The Independent
How the Monsters at Goldman Sachs Caused a Greek Tragedy | Alternet
After 30 years of right wing military dictatorship, with a corrupt elite, and a poor majority population hungry for basic financial stability Greece was an easy victim for these scammers after they were allowed into the Euro zone.
That's why many in the know call the EU, EUSSR.... (Deleted. L.)
Last edited by Lampada; November 10th, 2013 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Оскорбление. Переход на личности.
Спасибо.
I think you have to be wary when using wikipedia sources and it's insufficient as an isolated, single source, imho. Plus, two sources cited by the article should raise red flags - meaning, they weren't good at all.
I found it intriguing that people mostly discussed the definition of 'democracy' and compared it to its origins (i.e. Athenian democracy). I thought the mention of it by Antonio was good, though. Yes, it's described as the 'tyranny of the majority.' It's probably accurate. I would add, though, that it is domination by a select few over the dimwitted masses. Democracy doesn't work when there's so many foolish people. Also, one could argue that it works *perfectly* for the Elites or those who have power and control. Isn't it a matter of perspective? A totalitarian dictatorship might be simpler for those in power but a 'democracy' suggests legitimacy. Not to mention, these so-called democracies are being 'exported' to many countries.
But, many people don't get represented in a democracy and the rights/freedoms that are celebrated seem to be a sham. It is only allowed when the majority or State deem it acceptable but those aren't the principles which are its essence. Instead, it's a system to enable those with wealth, power and information. Those who are the best liars win elections and exercise political power. Billions of public (and sometimes private) money are spent in the attempts to secure political power. It's not about representing the people but serving which special interest groups invest in you.
Many people are uninformed in their own countries' politics and other countries' politics although you can obtain at least some insight with some time and effort. I noticed some replies here and I have the distinct impression they are not informed. I have emphasized previously that the political parties are ultimately the same, more or less. The mainstream parties are often so similar, that any differences are negligible. I posted videos showing this before the last American election. The feigned conflicts or divisions are merely for image and show. The media is owned, controlled or operated via powerful corporations either owned by Elites or those who own those shares. They have political pull so that it doesn't matter much which party is elected. This situation exists in most 'Western' countries.
In Sweden, it is interesting and can be contrasted with other countries such as the U.S. One powerful Jewish family owns half the media. The other half is owned by a collection of bankers. It is funny or ironic to see someone mention Goldman Sachs. They are part of the group that owns the other half. This company is called Schibsted. I'm not sure how it works in Russia exactly but we all know the State has a very vested interest in who owns or controls the mainstream media. They control how critical they are of the Kremlin. We know that the Putin regime is 'friendly' with the Oligarchs there. I would argue that democracy works in Russia if you take the p.o.v. that 'contemporary democracy' allows the enslavement of the people. If it allows theft of natural resources and privileges to a few. Then, sure, contemporary democracy works there as it 'works' in all the democratic countries. It is just a different picture but the same type of photographers.
It's mostly the left in power throughout most countries even when the banks have considerable influence in political and economic decisions. The terms some of the electorate and media use might deceive or mislead people but the policies these groups and parties use should reveal the realities.
Mainstream media is state-controlled (One channel tried to become more independent about 10 years ago, and was suffocated, it still broadcasts but the leading anchors left or had to leave it). The programs are of dubious quality, targeted at primitive and herd instincts. I hear there is a TV series about Stalin shown on the central channel (now or recently). The majority of other channels are entertainment and movies. The so called 'opposition' proportion-wise have little access to the media.
During the election mostly the mainstream channels broadcast the pertaining information.
"Who are you and what did you do to the real 14Russian?"
Suddenly you've made a u-turn. This post was the most sympathetic one I've ever seen from you.
За следующий переход на личности - 7 дней бан.That's why many in the know call the EU, EUSSR.... (Deleted. L.)
Извини, что я нагрубил.
French people with a semblance of education would know that European laws are binding, from the CAP through budgetary strictures, civil protection, energy, tourism, police cooperation to national defence. We're sometimes reminded of it, with such innocuous phrases as "further to the European directive so-and-so...". Hell, we're even supposed to elect our national representatives in the European parliament! But let me tell you the absentions run high... None but Brussels-buffs and those with a keen interest in politics really knows who's on the lists. To most of us they're just names.
When the French people voted NO to a European referendum, the government sat on it. Just plain sat on it. We have had zilch say in European politics (how could it be otherwise?!) the Euro was imposed upon us and has meant nothing but a loss in domestic purchasing power (although if you were to go on holidays to say, Turkey, your purchasing power parity would naturally get a boost).
Another sad issue would be that our debt belongs mostly to China. Needless to say, when you are indebted to someone, you are obliged to them... making this democratic myth even lamer.
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