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Thread: Is Russia a democracy? Плюс то же о некоторых других странах

  1. #61
    Почётный участник Lady Maria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Так это шутка?
    Нет, это статья.

  2. #62
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtrq View Post
    ...русским свободы давать нельзя, а нужно держать в ежовых рукавицах.
    Всё так, но мне кажется, что все народы в древние времена начинали с этого, но как-то постепенно свобода личности во многих странах перестала быть пустым местом. А мы - застряли вместе со Средней Азией. Кажется, везде, где можно и где нельзя, на всех уровнях обязательно будут установлены такие порядки, чтобы люди не почувствовали себя комфортно, и всегда будут какие-то мелкие подлянки.

    Первое, что бросилось в глаза, когда вернулся из Европы на днях - очень грязные машины. Второе, что бросилось - напряжённые лица.
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    В СССР верили, что справедливость в социализме.
    В США верят, что справедливость в демократии.
    Один Карл Маркс знал, что справедливости не будет, если человек производит больше, чем может потребить. Лишнее всегда можно отнять и перераспределить. Справедливость есть только у примитивных племён, так как они не берут от природы лишнего.
    Но в США не читали Маркса, поэтому тычут нам своей фишкой.
    1. Справедливости будет еще меньше если человек производит меньше чем потребляет: к природной алчности (с которой в любом случае ничего не сделаешь) добавляется еще и бедность.
    2. Ваш тезис о производстве и потреблении (или не ваш, но который как я понял вы поддерживаете) идет вразрез с негативным отношением к потребительской модели, присущим большинству русских с левыми взглядами, к которым я небезосновательно причислял вас, в чем подвох? =))

  4. #64
    Властелин
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    No, it isn't.
    Похоже, что Ваш уровень русского сильно вырос. Это уже хорошо.

  5. #65
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    They succeeded with this anyway though. At least with the illusion of democracy.
    By propaganda; convincing the majority that there really is democracy
    keeping two parties to choose from that are almost identical when viewed from a distance

  6. #66
    Почётный участник Lady Maria's Avatar
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    Oh yes, what a sham. Every five years we get to choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Or more appropriately perhaps, between plague and cholera.
    And to think that 70% of French decisions are actually Brussels-made... I'm so thrilled to exercise my voting right!

    Talk about democracy. Everywhere you turn it's just a self-perpetuating farce wherein an elite gets voted in at regular intervals, thanks to state-controlled media. I'm no expert, but it is my understanding that in the USA you cannot even hope to be in the running unless you're loaded or sponsored. Election costs are just prohibitive. (If I could be proved wrong, I'd welcome the news.) As for Russia, everyone knows Putin comes from the KGB. Need I say more? You can sense an iron fist from here (whether for good or ill, that's not for me to tell).

    Also, Russia seems very united. It wouldn't be that way in France, which tends to create conflicts of interest and general ill-feeling. Racial minorities (but this is very politically incorrect, will I get censored?) far outweigh the supposed white catholic majority, the public sector has been at variance with the private sector for decades, unions and employers are at daggers drawn and after epic street protests, homosexuals have recently been allowed to marry... in short, when the people are so divided, can they still rule? I don't think so. I think they're under a yoke, now more than ever.

    Divide and conquer!

  7. #67
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    Нам надо перестать считать своих предков дураками. Пусть будет царь-батюшка, как отправная точка. Далее нужна эволюция, постепенное улучшение, десятилетия эволюции.
    И пора обратить внимание на нижний уровень управления. Все почему-то смотрят на царя. Тем временем управление и существование коллективов на уровне компаний - это мрак и ужас. И никто кроме отмороженных философов не думает об этом. Я считаю, что самое эффективное предприятие - это индивидуальное предприятие. И всё благодаря тому, что там диктатура (что один решил, то и будет), а не демократия.

    I still think everything he said was technically correct. There is no denying that he was right in his observations.
    The problem is implementing it, and keeping it working. But that's another thread....

    As for the USSR - there was a level of democracy, as far as I recall, from learning about the governing of the major powers of the time, in school.
    Plus - there were ways and means for people to promote ideas and change some things, wasn't there?

    My point is that in terms of an working class individual's opportunity to influence his everyday life, he's not necessarily better off in a so-called democracy.
    And if you are some kind of elite in any society, you can use your money and connection to change things.

    If you compare the situation of a waitress or factory worker in the USSR versus the USA at the time, I don't necessarily think the USSR worker had less opportunities to influence things. Of course, I really wouldn't know since I have no experience of either. But I don't perceive there as having been no people power at all in the USSR.

    In many European countries in earlier days - workers had a lot of influence on society through the unions. But nowadays you rarely hear of the unions.
    When I went to university there was even mandatory membership in the student union, and I got involved in some political initiatives of interest to students. We took a stand on various issues and as large union backed groups we were able to get our messages heard.

  8. #68
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Deleted.L.
    If you have any personal experience or insight, then by all means explain it here, including what you base your information on.
    Else I can only conclude that you are continuing your mission to troll every comment I make without having anything substantial to add.

    Hint - if you have nothing new or constructive to add to the discussion, and you are not prepared to share any personal experiences to support your statements, then your comments are of no interest to anyone. Particularly not if your main objective is to insult or provoke another forum member.
    Lampada likes this.

  9. #69
    Почётный участник Lady Maria's Avatar
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    Democracy or no democracy, many who lived in the late days of the USSR view it with nostalgia. If you were a writer, a political activist, an artist, open disagreement was a no-no, but for Joe Public (or the Russian equivalent... say, Иван Иванович Иванов) what difference could it make? They toed the line, got on with their lives and picking mushrooms in the forest... one would suspect interactions with the government were few and far between - and the fewer and further between, the better.

    At least, there was no pretence, no façade. Nowadays the pressure from above is much more insidious. Democracy is just a warped term they shove down our throats so that we may bow and accept the political situation, as it is supposedly of our own making.

    Now I'm left wondering if Hanna visited Saudi Arabia, China or North Korea.
    maxmixiv likes this.

  10. #70
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Maria View Post
    And to think that 70% of French decisions are actually Brussels-made...
    Really, is that how people view it? Do you have any examples...?

    There are some really sinister conspiracy theories about the EU, the Euro, and plans for a USA-like federation in Europe, pushed through on the notion that "we must save the Euro, and only Brussels can control the Euro." So basically, not giving people a choice about it. EU is beginning to feel increasingly sinister. I used to love the idealism about it, but right now it feels like it's all about the money. I'm concerned about the issues about the lack of democracy on the decisions.
    Just look at Greece, they are essentially not running their own country any more. Brussels and the IMF is. Same thing happened in Latvia a few years ago, but it's smaller so nobody noticed. And who's next....

  11. #71
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    I respect and am enthusiastic about Greece as a great tourist destination, but the way they run their economy can just blow anyone's mind! They took a 140 billion euro loan and just spent it for their internal purposes having made not a single penny! Not only did they have no intent to ever repay it, they started to request for more loans to keep their economy afloat! That is truly mind-blowing, and in that situation, Brussels making some decisions for them doesn't even seem particularly bad.

  12. #72
    Почётный участник Lady Maria's Avatar
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    French people with a semblance of education would know that European laws are binding, from the CAP through budgetary strictures, civil protection, energy, tourism, police cooperation to national defence. We're sometimes reminded of it, with such innocuous phrases as "further to the European directive so-and-so...". Hell, we're even supposed to elect our national representatives in the European parliament! But let me tell you the absentions run high... None but Brussels-buffs and those with a keen interest in politics really knows who's on the lists. To most of us they're just names.

    When the French people voted NO to a European referendum, the government sat on it. Just plain sat on it. We have had zilch say in European politics (how could it be otherwise?!) the Euro was imposed upon us and has meant nothing but a loss in domestic purchasing power (although if you were to go on holidays to say, Turkey, your purchasing power parity would naturally get a boost).

    Another sad issue would be that our debt belongs mostly to China. Needless to say, when you are indebted to someone, you are obliged to them... making this democratic myth even lamer.
    Hanna likes this.

  13. #73
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    the way they run their economy can just blow anyone's mind
    Here is what happened. They got scr%wed by the Banksters and everyone from the Spiegel, to BBC, RT and Washington Post knows it. Not to mention independent bloggers who first flagged it. We've said it here many times.

    Goldman Sachs faces scrutiny over Greek debt swap | Business | theguardian.com
    Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    Goldman Sachs: the Greek connection - Business News - Business - The Independent
    How the Monsters at Goldman Sachs Caused a Greek Tragedy | Alternet

    After 30 years of right wing military dictatorship, with a corrupt elite, and a poor majority population hungry for basic financial stability Greece was an easy victim for these scammers after they were allowed into the Euro zone.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Maria View Post
    the Euro was imposed upon us and has meant nothing but a loss in domestic purchasing power
    I've heard a number of similar stories, I just don't get them, do you mean that after Euro was introduced as your local currency the prices began to rise, or do you mean your salaries went out of sync with the official rate of your former currency to Euro?

  15. #75
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Maria View Post
    French people with a semblance of education would know that European laws are binding, from the CAP through budgetary strictures, civil protection, energy, tourism, police cooperation to national defence. We're sometimes reminded of it, with such innocuous phrases as "further to the European directive so-and-so...". Hell, we're even supposed to elect our national representatives in the European parliament! But let me tell you the absentions run high... None but Brussels-buffs and those with a keen interest in politics really knows who's on the lists. To most of us they're just names.

    When the French people voted NO to a European referendum, the government sat on it. Just plain sat on it. We have had zilch say in European politics (how could it be otherwise?!) the Euro was imposed upon us and has meant nothing but a loss in domestic purchasing power (although if you were to go on holidays to say, Turkey, your purchasing power parity would naturally get a boost).

    Another sad issue would be that our debt belongs mostly to China. Needless to say, when you are indebted to someone, you are obliged to them... making this democratic myth even lamer.
    Never came across a French person with these types of views. Sorry to say that all French people I know, are corporate drones, anglophiles or just wealthy and clueless. So it's very interesting to read your posts! Hope you'll stick around in the forum, it would really benefit from your input, I think!

    And for the record I share many of your views, even if I don't have the French perspective.

    What happened to the CAP, by the way? The big hot issue when Eastern Europe was joining, was that they would not be allowed to get CAP assistance - blatant discrimination, really. I would have been too proud to be a 2nd class EU country, if I was them!
    I think they all agreed to membership sans CAP anyway, didn't they? Or are we now supporting 1 pig farmers in places like Poland and Romania? Not that they are any less worthy than some of the millionaire farmers that are milking CAP in Germany and lots of other places.

  16. #76
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Это полная чушь.
    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Так это шутка?
    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    No, it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    LOL.
    I have to bring to your attention that posting this way you break the forum rule #6. Please take it into account and please follow the rules.

    "6 - Do not turn this forum into a chatroom. Try to make posts that have some essence to them."



  17. #77
    Властелин wanja's Avatar
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    Семь бед, один Reset

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry Khomitchuk View Post

    Как в принципе изначально в Римской Республике и было. Диктатор избирался демократически (но уже и тут, блин, проблема; демократически - но среди определенного слоя населения только) для решения какой-нибудь задачи.
    Диктатора в Риме назначали в случае особой опасности для государства на срок не более полугода.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Диктатора в Риме назначали в случае особой опасности для государства на срок не более полугода.
    Ironically, dictators these days try to make their rule last forever...

  20. #80
    Hanna
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    The question about democracy is neither here nor there, really.
    In which Western country can you achieve real change through the ballot? None...
    In Europe soon all political parties are equally New Labour-esque politcally correct clones of each other.
    Turning democracy into a joke because no party is for any significant change. Those who are, are accused of being religious fanatics, clueless hippies, nazis,"stalinist" and similar by mainstream media to the point that nobody will vote for them.

    In America it's already happened a long time ago and everyone is busy squabbling about the details of the near identical programmes of the republicans or democrates, while the corporations and elites are grabbing the wealth and the population is getting poorer and more unhealthy year by year.

    I think that a much more interesting question is: Is Russia now a total nightwatch liberal country where you need money for everything from hospital care, university education. Are there decent paying jobs for people and pensions for pensioners? I don't really understand what the policies of Edinaya Rossiya are, what their ideology is, if they have one, and what their vision for Russia is.

    What are the big differences in the politics of Edinaya Rossiya and the second largest party?

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