Thread: Russ/Georgian Conflict subtitled Интервью́ c Ковалёвым

Originally Posted by Ramil

Originally Posted by scotcher

Those days are over though.

And that's why he's the head of the government now, not a president. This crisis wasn't unexpected.

Is he going to be able to maintain his popularity, and by extension that of his protege, when all that starts to bite?

His maneuvers are brilliant. He substituded Medvedev to live through the crisis and will point finger at him in case somebody would start to look for ones to blame. When the crisis subsides (in 4 years, as I gather) he would reappear and will repeat what he did in early 2000s. I think that's the plan. Maybe he wants to become a Russian Churchill.

[quote:350wjft4]I have my doubts, and my worry is that the system he's built during the good times isn't really equiped to deal with more troubled waters.

We're going to find out soon. But look, Putin's gone and everything went bad. When he returns everything will be all right again. That's how they think.

WIthout a viable opposition (and while I agree that the potential opposition have largely discredited themselves, let's not pretend that Putin hasn't actively sought to finish them off), to whom will people turn?

Guess whom...

...Putin, of course. That's the way system works.[/quote:350wjft4]

Geez, Ramil, you have even more contempt for the intelligence of the average voter than I do!

Do you really think Putin will be able to scape-goat Medvedev to that extent without it reflecting back on himself?

Originally Posted by Оля

I have listened to the constant blaming of "the West and USA" by Putin for Russia's problems.

How strange. I never heard anything like that from him.
If you mean the crisis, the whole world knows that it came from the USA.

It's not strange for those who read the news. If you read the news you could come across some Putins statements, f.e. such as this one:

'Все, что сегодня происходит в сфере экономики, финансов, началось, как известно, в США. Это уже не безответственность конкретных лиц, а безответственность системы. Системы, которая, как известно, претендовала на лидерство'.

[quote:1e11kb0v]Russians are being manipulated, most obviously, by the Kremlin these days. I notice this because i have lived in both places.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how a tourist could "notice" that "Russians are being manipulated". You must have been living here for several years, eh?[/quote:1e11kb0v]
May be you don't understand it, because you underestimate people's intellectual skills?

Моя реакция на это была общей фразой: "Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?"

Но это странная фраза. Я ведь не спрашиваю тебя "ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что луна зеленая?". Ты ведь этого не говорила. Почему же ты меня спрашиваешь, хочу ли я, чтобы ты поверила, что в России обзывать человека дураком - нормально?

Честно говоря, не понимаю, почему на бестактность нужно отвечать бестактностью.

Лампада, когда я писала, "you sound really stupid", я ни на что не отвечала. Я просто написала то, что я думаю. Для тебя это, наверное странно, но для многих людей заявление, что американцам скоро будет опасно приезжать в Россию, действительно звучит ЗАПРЕДЕЛЬНО глупо. И писать что-то другое вместо этого - это то же самое, что называть негра афроамериканцем.
Я даже больше скажу, я не особо-то и обиделась на фразу DDT. Просто меня удивляет, что ты замечаешь одну фразу и не замечаешь другую.

Good arguments:
I don't watch any talk shows
I usually do not read the news
I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.
That's nonsense.
you sound really stupid.
Господи, а надо возражать? Я не знала. У меня, знаете, на это как-то времени нет...
"Идиот" - потому что идиотом я его считаю.
Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия
я назвала уродов уродами
Да кому он на хрен нужен, сопляк этот...

These are not arguments, these are phrases, or rather, scraps of phrases taken out of context. Some of them are simply fake. I never said "Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия".

Hey, are you really sure you can sound convincing?

For you - never.

[quote:3346ots2]Moscow and Petersbourg is not the whole Russia.

Leave "the whole" out to be accurate.[/quote:3346ots2]
Moscow and Petersburg really IS a part of Russia, and quite important one. I'm surprised you don't know that.
(By the way, in which country do you live then? As far as I know, you live in Moscow)

'Все, что сегодня происходит в сфере экономики, финансов, началось, как известно, в США. Это уже не безответственность конкретных лиц, а безответственность системы. Системы, которая, как известно, претендовала на лидерство'.

I heard this one on TV. I don't see anything "super-puper anti-American" here. The crisis began in the USA, everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by Оля

These are not arguments, these are phrases, or rather, scraps of phrases taken out of context. Some of them are simply fake. I never said "Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия".

You can see scraps of phrases taken out of context, if you like, that's actually not bad. What I listed discloses your tries to smash all the statements your opponenets provide, your way to react.

Originally Posted by Оля

Hey, are you really sure you can sound convincing?

For you - never.

For me you sound just spoiled if you like to know.

[quote:1vx69yu1][quote:1vx69yu1]Moscow and Petersbourg is not the whole Russia.

Leave "the whole" out to be accurate.[/quote:1vx69yu1]
Moscow and Petersburg really IS a part of Russia, and quite important one. I'm surprised you don't know that.
(By the way, in which country do you live then? As for as I know you live in Moscow)
[/quote:1vx69yu1]
Thanks I'm also surpriced I didn't know that. I live in Moscow, but often I go out of Moscow... to visit my poor Russia. Why?

[quote:1vx69yu1]'Все, что сегодня происходит в сфере экономики, финансов, началось, как известно, в США. Это уже не безответственность конкретных лиц, а безответственность системы. Системы, которая, как известно, претендовала на лидерство'.

I heard this one on TV. I don't see nothing "super-puper anti-American" here. Tha crisis began is the USA, everyone knows that.[/quote:1vx69yu1]
Isn't that blaming of the USA for Russia's problems?

Originally Posted by scotcher

Geez, Ramil, you have even more contempt for the intelligence of the average voter than I do!

The media is doing real wonders these days. And, let's be honest, the intelligence of the average voter is far from being remarkable, to put it mildly.

Do you really think Putin will be able to scape-goat Medvedev to that extent without it reflecting back on himself?

Why not? This is really not Medvedev's (or Putin's) fault. It's the crisis. The US has collapsed the world's economy - the yankees are yet again the ones to blame.
They will make some anti-American announcements and the voters would flock under their banner like docile animals. I know they will. They always do.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Do you really think Putin will be able to scape-goat Medvedev to that extent without it reflecting back on himself?

Why not? This is really not Medvedev's (or Putin's) fault. It's the crisis. The US has collapsed the world's economy - the yankees are yet again the ones to blame.
They will make some anti-American announcements and the voters would flock under their banner like docile animals. I know they will. They always do.

Agree, the crisies isn't playing into DAM's hands. We've known scap-goat cases. Think of Kirienko and the default.

Originally Posted by mishau_

What I listed discloses your tries to smash all the statements your opponenets provide, your way to react.

Listen, what you listed was not even my answers to "the statements my opponenets provide". If you would like to deal with me in this thread, it's okay, I'll answer you more detailed.

As for:

I don't watch any talk shows
I usually do not read the news
I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.

these are not answers to "the statements my opponenets provide". And what's wrong about them? One can know what happens in the world without talk shows and newspapers.

This

Господи, а надо возражать? Я не знала. У меня, знаете, на это как-то времени нет...

is not either. As I understand, you were expecting that I would wrote a whole dissertation about my view on Wiki's definition of "democracy" which included 25 points! I really do not have time for that. And I really find some of them demagogic. I actually wrote to you that "некоторые имеют прямое отношение к демагогии", but you read it as "некоторое и прямое". What's the reason to dicsuss with a man who can't even read properly what I wrote?

"Идиот" - потому что идиотом я его считаю.

I don't believe that you don't consider someone an idiot. Me, for example.

Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия

It's fake, as I said. I didn't write that.

я назвала уродов уродами

So what? By the way, this one is not my answer to "the statements my opponenets provide" either. And yes, I really find people who lie about their country (and, by the way, you yourself agreed that they lie) freaks. At least.

Да кому он на хрен нужен, сопляк этот...

This is not an answer to "the statements my opponenets provide" either!

For me you sound just spoiled if you like to know.

I do know that, dear mishau. But it seems like you don't know you sound like a "troll" almost to everyone on this forum.

Isn't that blaming of the USA for Russia's problems?

But why can't he tell the truth? "Все, что сегодня происходит в сфере экономики, финансов, началось, как известно, в США." Is this not true? Everyone says that, for example, Sarkozy, too. Why noone blaims him for anti-Americanism?

Originally Posted by Юрка

Originally Posted by basurero

I can't believe the mainstream Russian media is still quoting that 1500 South Ossetian civilians died. Everyone now knows those figures are false.

Думаю, что если бы ты посидел недельку в Цхинвале под обстрелом или просто побывал бы в нём, то не мог бы поверить, что жертв меньше полутора тысяч.

So you were there? How did you survive?

Originally Posted by DDT

Lets's not forget that there are about 6,000 ex KGB officers still working in the Russian government!

Let's not forget George H.W. Bush was former director of the CIA.

Originally Posted by Оля

And I really find some of them demagogic.

Once again, demagogy is an oratorical technique. This technique is used to proove one's position by playing around facts via special rethoric. This rethoric includes some tricks like these:
- mischaracterizing the opposing position (what you're doing all the time to those who you don't like),
- comparing incomparable quaintities (like percents and numbers),
- scapegoating (like Putin blaming of America for Russian problems),
- false dilemma (If I don't criticise anything about Russia then I love it, if I criticise some things in Russia I should hate it)
- half-truth (saying that we increase import taxes to protect our car builders, we omit mentioning that our car importers' right will be violated)
- personal attack (you're a troll, BS, you're stupid, you're lying, you're crying, shut up and so on)
- and so on if you want to learn more, read through a rethoric course.

So I doubt you understand the demagogy term yet so profoundly in order to use it properly.

Originally Posted by Оля

"Идиот" - потому что идиотом я его считаю.

I don't believe that you don't consider someone an idiot. Me, for example.

You? Unless you wish to be called like that Ok, You're trying to say I should behave so, becasue you yourself behave so. It's called "передергивание" , don't know this term in English (distortion?), but "передергивание" is an aspect of demagogy. I'll consider some one to be an idiot if a psychiatrist who I can trust reports me about that. Other than that, I find this word rude and offensive.

Originally Posted by Оля

Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия

It's fake, as I said. I didn't write that.

No, you didn't. That wasn't my goal to collect your exact writings. Tell me, do you accept the definition of democracy I earlier provided or not?

[quote:11nd20dg]For me you sound just spoiled if you like to know.

I do know that, dear mishau. But it seems like you don't know you sound like a "troll" almost to everyone on this forum.
[/quote:11nd20dg]
almost eveyone = some? Or you know precisely how many visitors read the forum every day?

[quote:11nd20dg]Isn't that blaming of the USA for Russia's problems?

But why can't he tell the truth? "Все, что сегодня происходит в сфере экономики, финансов, началось, как известно, в США." Is this not true? Everyone says that, for example, Sarkozy, too. Why noone blaims him for anti-Americanism?[/quote:11nd20dg]
Because Putin mentioned irresponsibility of the USA. You cited half of his words. You left out the main idea "Это уже не безответственность конкретных лиц, а безответственность системы". Why should America be responsible for Russian economy? Is Bush president of the RF? If America is resopinsible for what's going on in Russia, what the heaven has Putin been doing as Prime-minister all the time?

Originally Posted by mishau_

almost eveyone = some? Or you know precisely how many visitors read the forum every day?

To tell the truth, I added "almost" merely out of politeness. And I meant active members of the forum, not guests.

And no, "almost eveyone" dosn't mean "some". It means "almost eveyone".

Originally Posted by basurero

Originally Posted by DDT

Lets's not forget that there are about 6,000 ex KGB officers still working in the Russian government!

Let's not forget George H.W. Bush was former director of the CIA.

Let's not make light of this situation. Bush is one man. 6,000 is 6,000. The CIA is not the KGB of the Soviet era and I am not going to waste my time with you comparing how much fear Soviet dissidents had for the KGB compared to USA dissidents had for the CIA. (if you could find any...except for the Bill Ayers types)

The fact is, the KGB helped hold the Soviet system in power. The same KGB survived Perestroika and is still scattered through the government. One has to wonder how many of these former KGB workers are still hanging on to their old ways. Gorbachev once made a statement to his colleagues that Perestroika was just a cover and that nothing would really change.

It is no wonder that the change form the Soviet system to the new system has stalled and is now taking steps backwards. The concept of "freedom of the individual" is not talked about in Russia and as far as i can tell, not even wanted.

Here is some of the stupidity that goes on still in Russia. Russians are required to be registered with the authorities at their correct addresses and carry this documentation. My wife's parents were not even allowed to sell their flat because my wife was still registered as living there. So she had to go to some government office and un- register at that address and give them a new place of residence to write into her Internal Passport, that she must present by law, to police if asked. Fortunately for her the police usually only bother males for their IDs, because she usually leaves hers at home. But it is the principal that counts. Do Russians complain about this intrusion by their government? NO! I've been asked a number of times while walking down the street, but when the cops realise I am a foreigner and hear my Australian accent they sometimes just smile and say "удачи" or something and wave me on my way. I don't complain, but let me tell you, I am not used to "being asked for my papers" unless I am driving a car. You wouldn't believe the BS she had to go through to change to her married name. She made 3 trips to some obscure police station to find a particular cop that she had been told to see by another government office, and then made an appointment with him to come back at a later date. She went back 2 weeks later and his buddy cop said to her, "He's not here. You'll have wait. He doesn't normally do this anymore but he must have made an exception due to your pretty eyes."
When the right cop finally showed up, 40 minutes late for his shift and smelling of hard liquor, he told her, "The law has been changed and we can not register your new name. You'll have to find out where you can go yourself. We don't know."

Oh sh!t I'm rambling...but you get the picture!

Originally Posted by basurero

So you were there? How did you survive?

Нет, я там не был. Но те, кто был, удивляются, что кто-то выжил. Даже люди с запада. Они приезжают, видят руины. Потом долго выясняют, не русские ли снесли город, не инсценировка ли это для западного зрителя. Допрашивают местных осетин, как именно они выжили, если здания разрушены почти полностью. Сомневаются, что это возможно. Осетины снова залезают в подвалы, рассказывают подробности, недоверчивые западники вроде верят.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Originally Posted by Оля

... Но говорить, что скоро иностранцам будет опасно приезжать в Россию - это реально ГЛУПО.

Здесь тоже можно было бы употребить более приемлемые слова, например, можно было бы сказать это несомненно ошибочно или это сильное заблуждение. Я думаю, что это не сделало бы твои доводы менее убедительными.

Тогда предлагаю Оле плохое слово ГЛУПО заменять на разрешённый на данном форуме смайлик: :fool" или на слово FOOL.

[quote=Оля]

Originally Posted by "mishau_":ef1bir5t

almost eveyone = some? Or you know precisely how many visitors read the forum every day?

To tell the truth, I added "almost" merely out of politeness. And I meant active members of the forum, not guests.
[/quote:ef1bir5t]

So it's a demagoic trick that you made use of, read this:

So if you added "almost" becase you only wanted to be polite, it's this:
1.5.5.1. Некорректное использование квантора всеобщности
Очень часто встречающийся прием, состоящий в том, что некоторое
свойство (как правило, характерное для большинства объектов некоторого
класса) безосновательно приписывается всем объектам этого класса (а
иногда еще и других классов).

If you added "almost" for some other reason, then it's this:
1.5.6. Некорректная индукция
Некорректное рассуждение "от частного к общему" строится на основе
неполной индукции, то есть приписывания всем объектам класса некоторого
свойства на том основании, что им обладает часть из них

So what do you make of that, Оля?

Originally Posted by mishau_

So what do you make of that, Оля?

That you want very much to talk to me about me.

[quote=Оля]

Originally Posted by "mishau_":2ec09gil

So what do you make of that, Оля?

That you want very much to talk to me about me. [/quote:2ec09gil]
It's not much about you, rather about your way to discuss. I want to draw your attention to how many demagogic tricks you use yourself while giving your opinion. Since I don't think you're an idiot or so, unlike you wanted me to, I hope you will reduce the number of those tricks in the future discussions or even stop using them at all.