Thread: Russ/Georgian Conflict subtitled Интервью́ c Ковалёвым

Originally Posted by Оля

I don't watch any talk shows, and as for Первый Канал, I only watch programs like КВН or Что? Где? Когда? And I usually do not read the news. Only sometimes on the Internet. I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.

In this case, why are we even having this discussion?


When I first went to Russia I was a fan of Putin.
But not so now.
I was surprised to find Russian friends who confided that they were afraid of Putin. When my Russian became better, I understood their fear.

There are stories now that a number of Russian citizens have been arrested and beaten for writing and posting negative things about Russia on forums. Though I have not been able to confirm this, yet.

"если вы не согласны с тем, что я сказал, мне придется усомниться в ваших умственных способностях".

Это переход на личности, это и правда грубее. Хотя на это может быть ответ в духе "тогда мне придется подумать, что сомневаясь в моих умственных способностях, вы судите по себе". Это так, шутка.

Originally Posted by Оля

И да, в России допустимо в дискуссии с улыбкой говорить человеку (кстати, причем тут "малознакомому"?): "извините, но это же просто глупо!".

Иногда меня слегка коробит от нашего общества. Мало того, что грубить, еще и утверждать что так принято.

Эх, прошу прощения, за отход от темы. Впрочем, интервью с Ковалевым, как мне кажется мало кого заинтересует. Лично у меня к нему мало доверия.

Originally Posted by DDT

I don't watch any talk shows, and as for Первый Канал, I only watch programs like КВН or Что? Где? Когда? And I usually do not read the news. Only sometimes on the Internet. I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.

In this case, why are we even having this discussion?

Because Russian TV is not only Первый канал!

I was surprised to find Russian friends who confided that they were afraid of Putin. When my Russian became better, I understood their fear.

I can tell you that I'm not afraid of him!

There are stories now that a number of Russian citizens have been arrested and beaten for writing and posting negative things about Russia on forums.

Rumours is a strong thing, indeed... By the way, do you have a link at those stories? Because I never heard of anything like that.

Originally Posted by DDT

There are stories now that a number of Russian citizens have been arrested and beaten for writing and posting negative things about Russia on forums. Though I have not been able to confirm this, yet.

No, it's only going to be so -- wasn't that you who put a post about that (treason law to toughen) a few days ago? However, if you know where we can find out more about those stories, please provide us with some likns.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Originally Posted by DDT

There are stories now that a number of Russian citizens have been arrested and beaten for writing and posting negative things about Russia on forums. Though I have not been able to confirm this, yet.

No, it's only going to be so -- wasn't that you who put a post about that (treason law to toughen) a few days ago? However, if you know where we can find out more about those stories, please provide us with some likns.

It was my Russian wife who alerted me to these stories, several months ago while she was chatting on a forum. She became afraid and deleted her account and all her posts at that web-site. I asked her for the name of the site but she has avoided telling me but I will keep pursuing.

Perhaps you will be able to find out better than me, because your Russian is obviously better than mine and we must search Russian language web-sites.

Может быть, и только потому что многие американцы представления не имели, что в России тоже есть Georgia и решили, что русские напали на их штат Georgia. Здесь было много шуток в связи с этой путаницей.

Ну вообще-то тот американец говорил не про штат Georgia. Он говорил что-то в духе "мы-то думали, что Россия наш друг, а теперь-то оказывается, что она наш враг!" и т.п. Так что вот, ему как-то было не до шуток.

It was my Russian wife who alerted me to these stories, several months ago while she was chatting on a forum. She became afraid and deleted her account and all her posts at that web-site.

Fear takes molehills for mountains, you know.

Originally Posted by DDT

It was my Russian wife who alerted me to these stories, several months ago while she was chatting on a forum. She became afraid and deleted her account and all her posts at that web-site.

I think you could take her stories too literally. I think she meant the Savva Terentiev case. Savva was a blogger from Syktyvkar who one day wrote in his blog that police are "scum" and that "policemen should be cleaned up by ceremonially burning bad officers twice a day in a town square." Savva was given a suspended one-year prison term for raising social discrimination. The most stinking thing about that story was no dicrect evidence that the written message was put by Savva. Possibly, you wife was chatting just right at the so called "ЖЖ" (livejournal.com).

Actually, I've read of several cases of Russians being charged for posting things on the internet, either in forums or blogs. I can't think of any of them that had anything to do with criticising Russia though, they were all to do with insulting some jumped-up beaurocrat like a mayor or some such.

Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?

Вообще никак нет, но в интернете по сути да )
Не хочу, что-бы кто-то принял на свой счёт. Это ни в коем случае не относится ни к кому из присутствующих, но несколько лет назад мелькала фраза:
"Деточка, это интернет, тут могут на ... послать"... кхем..)

Actually, I've read of several cases of Russians being charged for posting things on the internet, either in forums or blogs. I can't think of any of them that had anything to do with criticising Russia though, they were all to do with insulting some jumped-up beaurocrat like a mayor or some such.

hm... never heard of it.. It would be great if you could post a link or something

Originally Posted by Waterlaz

Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?

Вообще никак нет, но в интернете по сути да )
Не хочу, что-бы кто-то принял на свой счёт. Это ни в коем случае не относится ни к кому из присутствующих, но несколько лет назад мелькала фраза:
"Деточка, это интернет, тут могут на ... послать"... кхем..)

Я настаиваю, что "извини, но это глупо" и "ты дурак" - это абсолютно разные фразы.

Я настаиваю, что "извини, но это глупо" и "ты дурак" - это абсолютно разные фразы.

А я и не говорил, что одинаковые

Originally Posted by Waterlaz

Я настаиваю, что "извини, но это глупо" и "ты дурак" - это абсолютно разные фразы.

А я и не говорил, что одинаковые

Ну это я просто к комментарию Лампады. Просто мне приписали то, чего я не говорила, и потом пошло обсуждение, как будто я и правда обозвала кого-то дураком.

Originally Posted by Оля

Many thanks, DDT, to you and to Mr Kovalev for the evidence that there is no "totalitarian regime" in Russia (of which existence Kovalev and other "human rights activists" try to convince us all the time). As you all can see, Mr Kovalev is free and safe which would never happen under a totalitarian regime.

Olya, I think you misunderstand the situation. The problem with Russian 'human rights activists' is that all of them dirtied their hands. They reek, they stink and one wouldn't stand remaining with them in one room for long. Nobody in Russia believes them, moreover, only few left who believe them still abroad. But if you put them in jail (which Kovalev deserves in my opinion) everything they speak about would be considered as genuine truth by the foreign media.

So there's no real opposition to the present govenrment. Putin's not so bad. Medvedev is worse. Who's going to be next? And, there is a more frightening question - what would United Russia do when Putin dies (may he live long, but all people die eventually). The bureacracy will take control and there wouldn't be anyone to stop them. Pehraps, Putin in early 2000s didn't require opposition to function properly. Now there isn't anyone serious enough to be at least spotted by the government. No opposition exists here in Russia (KPRF doesn't count).
Still, I think that the absense of the opposition is the fault of the opposition itself. The government has nothing to do with it. You woudn't expect the government to exercise any effort to create themselves an opposition?

Originally Posted by Waterlaz

Actually, I've read of several cases of Russians being charged for posting things on the internet, either in forums or blogs. I can't think of any of them that had anything to do with criticising Russia though, they were all to do with insulting some jumped-up beaurocrat like a mayor or some such.

hm... never heard of it.. It would be great if you could post a link or something

Sure, here's the one I made reference to, and another I remembered vague details about:

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_ ... y_id=20243

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1068868.html

Sorry they're in English, but I'm posting on my mobile phone and it doesn't like cyrillic.

Originally Posted by Ramil

So there's no real opposition to the present govenrment. Putin's not so bad. Medvedev is worse. Who's going to be next? And, there is a more frightening question - what would United Russia do when Putin dies (may he live long, but all people die eventually). The bureacracy will take control and there wouldn't be anyone to stop them. Pehraps, Putin in early 2000s didn't require opposition to function properly. Now there isn't anyone serious enough to be at least spotted by the government. No opposition exists here in Russia (KPRF doesn't count).

Don't you think there's a danger that Putin's system might unravel sooner than that? Surely part of the reason for his popularity throughout his two terms and beyond was the strength of the Russian economy, with 10%-ish annual growth and visible and steady improvement to the lives of ordinary citizens. Those days are over though. The world economy is fubar, oil prices have crashed and massive unemployment is on the cards for many countries, including Russia. Is he going to be able to maintain his popularity, and by extension that of his protege, when all that starts to bite? I have my doubts, and my worry is that the system he's built during the good times isn't really equiped to deal with more troubled waters. WIthout a viable opposition (and while I agree that the potential opposition have largely discredited themselves, let's not pretend that Putin hasn't actively sought to finish them off), to whom will people turn?

Good arguments:

• I don't watch any talk shows[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• I usually do not read the news[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• I don't remember how a newspaper looks like.[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• That's nonsense.[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• you sound really stupid. [/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• Господи, а надо возражать? Я не знала. У меня, знаете, на это как-то времени нет...[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• "Идиот" - потому что идиотом я его считаю. [/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• Определение современного понятия демократии - демагогия[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• я назвала уродов уродами[/*:m:2wgld1qs]
• Да кому он на хрен нужен, сопляк этот...[/*:m:2wgld1qs]

Hey, are you really sure you can sound convincing?

Originally Posted by Оля

Moscow and Petersbourg is not the whole Russia.

Leave "the whole" out to be accurate.

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by Waterlaz

Я настаиваю, что "извини, но это глупо" и "ты дурак" - это абсолютно разные фразы.

А я и не говорил, что одинаковые

Ну это я просто к комментарию Лампады. Просто мне приписали то, чего я не говорила, и потом пошло обсуждение, как будто я и правда обозвала кого-то дураком.

Оля, я не видела обсуждения, где тебя бы обвинили в обзывании кого-то дураком.
Ты сказала: "Лампада, я не знаю, может у наших стран и у наших народов слишком большие культурные различия, может, с американской точки зрения это ультра-супер-пупер-запредельно неполикорректно, но тут уж ничего не поделаешь - такие мы разные".
Моя реакция на это была общей фразой: "Ты хочешь, чтобы я поверила, что сейчас в России допустимо в дискуссии в улыбкой говорить малознакомому человеку, что он глупый или дурак?"
Видела я грубость ДДТ и почему-то понадеялась, что он позже извинится.
Честно говоря, не понимаю, почему на бестактность нужно отвечать бестактностью.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Nobody in Russia believes them...

till he finds himself in trouble and comes to them for help.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Those days are over though.

And that's why he's the head of the government now, not a president. This crisis wasn't unexpected.

Is he going to be able to maintain his popularity, and by extension that of his protege, when all that starts to bite?

His maneuvers are brilliant. He substituded Medvedev to live through the crisis and will point finger at him in case somebody would start to look for ones to blame. When the crisis subsides (in 4 years, as I gather) he would reappear and will repeat what he did in early 2000s. I think that's the plan. Maybe he wants to become a Russian Churchill.

I have my doubts, and my worry is that the system he's built during the good times isn't really equiped to deal with more troubled waters.

We're going to find out soon. But look, Putin's gone and everything went bad. When he returns everything will be all right again. That's how they think.

WIthout a viable opposition (and while I agree that the potential opposition have largely discredited themselves, let's not pretend that Putin hasn't actively sought to finish them off), to whom will people turn?

Guess whom...

...Putin, of course. That's the way system works.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Originally Posted by Ramil

Nobody in Russia believes them...

till he finds himself in trouble and comes to them for help.

O'rly? Who? If I find myself in trouble they will be the last whom I ask for help.