Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

It would have been more fair to make this a regional decision in that case.
It seems to me that the Russians tend to live in the 3-4 largest cities and in some of those they are majority.
While the rest of the country is mainly Latvian.

This is so tragic - both for Latvians who are still hurting and very much hung up on the past.
And the Russian-speakers who have to pay for "the sins of the fathers" by putting up with language discrimination that would not be acceptable anywhere else in Europe.

We just don't allow some of them to vote.

Every citizen can vote - does not matter what his nationality is.
Everyone else is free to naturalize and get citizenship at any time - ~150k already did.
(and of course everyone can also get citizenship of another country - like 30k+ citizens of Russia that currently live here)
And as I said - many don't want a citizneship, because they can visit Russia and the EU without a visa (no Russian or EU citizen can do that) - obtaining it is a messy and long procedure (and in the past they were extempt from conscription in army).

Find those bastards who put stickers right over the descriptions in Russian on packages of various merchandise in Riga shops and take their glue away for a start

- it is not as big issue as you make it to be - maybe some isolated cases :P

Hanna - you see the results of referendum - only 17% are in favour - the rest don't want Latvia to be officially multilingual - 800k+ people clearly said - NO - not authorities, not politicians, just ordinary voters like me - the rest who did not participate - in this case - their (in)action still counts as NO...
And I remind once more - percentage should be calculated from whole eligible voter count - ~1,5 million - not just those who took part in referendum - because for constitutional referendums to succeed - at least 50% of eligible voters (that's 750k people) must take part and at least 50% of eligible voters must vote "FOR".
That's why most of the remaining 500k did not participate, because there was a zero chance for this referendum to succeed (we don't even have that much Russians here (only ~550k and 300k of them - citizens) - and not all of them supported this referendum)

It would have been more fair to make this a regional decision in that case.

It's not possible, because you still need to change the constitution - and organize another referendum like this.
Unless there is a revolution or something like that - parliament alone simply cannot pass a law like that - a referendum is needed.

And in a way - those who supported this referendum - shot themselves in a foot.
Because they demanded equal status to Russian and Latvian everywhere (completely ignoring another minorities) instead of something more moderate.
And also used aggressive rethorics - "русские идут!", "мы им покажем!", "300 тысяч или больше голосов «ЗА» станут для них нокаутом. Да, это шоковая терапия, но другого языка они не понимают." i.t.d...
So - now people will be against to even more moderate proposals.

and very much hung up on the past.

In this case - it's the Russians who want to live in the past - this referendum asked to restore language policy of Soviet Union - "Russian ūber alles - the rest should die out" - but Soviet Union is long dead and people should understand that and move on.
We want to move to the West, they want to move to Soviet Union.
And we see what happened in Belarus and Ireland - and we don't want that here.

I like how this Russian blogger put it:
http://shiropaev.livejournal.com/90104.html

Что означает в Латвии русский язык как второй государственный? А это значит, что совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации, могут позволить себе оставаться совками. Это значит, что у них будет законное право не знать и презирать латышский язык, «положить болт» на латышскую культуру и саму Латвию, в которую они когда-то приехали просто как в одну из провинций необъятной красной империи. А главное, повторяю, у них будет законное право и возможность оставаться вечно вчерашними, советскими людьми, принципиально не желающими ментально и психологически интегрироваться в Европу, в западный образ жизни. Русский язык для них – всего лишь средство сохранения своей совковой идентичности.

Originally Posted by nulle

I like how this Russian blogger put it:
Алексей Широпаев - Язык Москвы

Что означает в Латвии русский язык как второй государственный? А это значит, что совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации, могут позволить себе оставаться совками. Это значит, что у них будет законное право не знать и презирать латышский язык, «положить болт» на латышскую культуру и саму Латвию, в которую они когда-то приехали просто как в одну из провинций необъятной красной империи. А главное, повторяю, у них будет законное право и возможность оставаться вечно вчерашними, советскими людьми, принципиально не желающими ментально и психологически интегрироваться в Европу, в западный образ жизни. Русский язык для них – всего лишь средство сохранения своей совковой идентичности.

Нашел, кого цитировать - нациста-антисемита.

"... совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации, могут позволить себе оставаться совками"

Думешь, он русских имел в виду? Хрена - евреев! Стропаев-таки убежден, что Россию создали жиды, как Проект по порабощению представителей арийской расы, и ящерики уже почти полностью одолели.

Тем временем, "совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации", дают 50% в бюджет Латвии. Фактически, страна живет на деньги русскоговорящих людей. А если учесть, что трудоспособное население из Латвии постоянно убывает (в направлении ФРГ), вопросов возникает еще больше. Фактичкески, русскоязычных людей, содержащих официальных латышских нелюдей, власти выводят из правовой среды в среду этнического противостояния. Причем, противостояния не толлко русских латышам, но противостояние "своих" и "врагов всего латышского", куда попадают и сами латыши, поддерживающие требования русских.

Думешь, он русских имел в виду?

Of course not - совки - Soviet people without nationality and with common language - Russian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

The funny thing is Nulle - as much as you don't like Russian, you understand it perfectly well - lots of people elsewhere in the EU would really envy you this... And before you know it, it might come in very handy for your career or some other reason - for example while travelling etc.

Я не против русский язык.
I do not like chauvinists who apparently don't know what country they are living in.
Most of the people who went to this referendum and voted against - know Russian - but they don't want to be required to know it, because we are not a part of Russia.

I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains).

If there was a referendum to make English a second state language - I would go and vote against too.

It is not like - well, most of people here know Russian so they should use this language instead.

Originally Posted by nulle

I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains).

It is not like - well, most of people here know Russian so they should use this language instead.

You are pathetic. You do know that it is nothing but letting Russians speak Russian and eliminating any "language police" on the spot. But you are scared to death that any progress in treating Russians as people but not as a second class (like NONcitizens) will take place. This will force you automatically admit your Nazi's presumptions in such a treatment. And in the nightmare dreams you see how it can be with you treated the same way you treated others.

Originally Posted by nulle

Я не против русского языка.

I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains).

Do Finns in Finland get fined for insufficient use of the other national language - Swedish? Do Swedes in Finland get fined for insufficient use of Finnish? Is there language police at all? Also, do Finns in Finland call Swedes invaders because Sweden owned Finland for about half the millennia?
AFAIK, the answer is no.
I think that Finland is happy with two national languages. So my call to Latvia is this: follow Finland's example! But apparently Latvian society is not ready to show magnanimity now. Maybe in the future...

I don't know what I dislike more: Russians claiming that Latvians are Nazis, or Latvians black-painting Russians making false accusations and discriminating against Russian speakers!

And Nulle, you keep forgetting, that as far as the Soviets were concerned, they liberated you guys and did you a favour by incorporating you in the USSR.
It was not like they occupied you and started exploiting the country, like say, the Nazis did. Whether it can really be called an "occupation" is doubtful. I guess the mistake they made was to not hold a referendum about whether Latvians wanted to be part of the USSR, or remain independent. But as we know, referendums is not exactly part of the communist ideology. The Soviets acted fully in line with their ideology, which they believed was a great ideology. They thought they were helping you. I suppose you could call it "a well meaning mistake". The whole idea was that all the Soviet republics were equal, but as far as I understand, the Baltics were considered particularly nice because of the gorgeous coastline and the more "European" feel. They built schools, libraries, hospitals, sports centres etc. You have mentioned people being deported, but as the Russians here have pointed out, this happened to anyone in the USSR that was considered suspect and it was not a particular slight against Latvia. And it affected only a minority. Other Latvians benefited from free education and support in their endeavours like sports or art that they might not have been able to afford as peasants in pre-war Latvia. And don't forget that all other countries accepted the annexation of Latvia as juste and legal at the time. Whether this was morally right or not, I do not know, but from the point of view of the USSR, they were genuinely liberating you and annexed the Baltics in a legal way.

Gosh I am getting rather fed up with this discussion - I think we have covered it from every possible angle now!

As for Finnish: Sweden was fully planning to make Finland Swedish speaking. No Swedish speakers learned Finnish and many Finns changed language to Swedish.
The Finns were not treated that well - in fact, many there apparently thought belonging to Russia was an improvement to belonging to Sweden, because Russia more or less left them alone and did not try to change things, whereas Sweden had meddled quite a bit.

They take a few years of mandatory Swedish in school and this helps them to remain a part of the rest of Scandinavia - otherwise they could not understand the other languages. Some don't like the mandatory Swedish. All of the Finns defend the right of the native Swedish speakers there to speak their own language. It's part of their national identity to have two languages and they like it.

All of the native Swedish speakers learn Finnish before adulthood and even if it is not their preferred language, they can speak it if it is necessary.
The Finns can all understand basic Swedish, some are happy to speak it with strangers, others not.

The fact that Finns speak Swedish has helped their economy massively, helps peoples individual careers and means that there are lots of marriages and friendships between Finns and Swedes. I studied there for 6 months, for example. Lots of Finns study in Sweden.

Not only schools and hospitals were built in Soviet Latvia - factories as well. For example, RAF - Riga Autobus Factory, founded in 1949. Vans made by RAF were used as shuttles, ambulance cars etc. everywhere in the USSR. Unfortunately for Latvia, RAF lost in the competition with the Russian company GAZ (founded in 1932 in Nizhny Novgorod), failed to conquer the new Russian market and went bankrupt in 1998.

but letting Russians speak Russian

No one is forbidding them to do that - Russian speakers can and do provide service to other Russian speakers in a language they prefer - no one is punished for that.
In some shops employees have little flags on their uniforms that indicate their language skills - find one who has Russian flag and you will get service in Russian without any problem.
But Latvians should not be required to do that - if they do - that is a nice bonus, but Russians should not demand that.
If you think that Russian working in some government institution or customer service should only speak to me in Russian - then NO - they should speak to me in Latvian or get fired.

Speaking Latvian in Latvia IS NOT A DISCRIMINATION.
Just like speakin Russian in Russia is not a discrimination.

Maybe in the future...

When Russian tanks will come in?

It was not like they occupied you and started exploiting the country, like say, the Nazis did.

They did exactly that - and they invaded BEFORE Nazis came in - in 1940 when they and Nazis were ALLIES - USSR propaganda tries to not mention that.

but from the point of view of the USSR, they were genuinely liberating you and annexed the Baltics in a legal way.

But USSR does not exist now.
And from Latvian and most of Western world point of view they occupied us illegally.
Only cowards like Sweden admitted (at least for some time) that occupation was legal - USA and many other countries did not.

And it affected only a minority.

Almost everyone have at least one relative that was deported or otherwise persecuted by USSR.
Not to mention that these deported people and their descendants were later discriminated against even after Stalin's death.
But it does not matter how many people were deported - that was a crime against humanity - equal to Holocaust.
Pre-war Latvian government never did anything like that.

They built schools, libraries, hospitals, sports centres etc.

So did pre-war Latvian government - but they did not kill people.
And so does current government.
Before invasion - standard of living here was much higher than in USSR.

Other Latvians benefited from free education

Education was free in pre-war Latvia too.
And it is free now - I did not have to pay a single lat for my university degree.

The whole idea was that all the Soviet republics were equal

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.

Not only schools and hospitals were built in Soviet Latvia - factories as well

Factories which proved to not work in free market, because of shitty production quality.
And stuff RAF made was just terrible compared to anything that was manufactured in the West.

Btw xdns - thanks for correction

And Hanna - your post looks like:
If you said this to some woman after she was raped:
"Well, you are not the only woman that was raped. And you probably enjoyed this a little bit, didn't you. And the man that did this to you - he looks rather charming, and you should understand him - he really wanted sex - he did not do it because he hates you. You should make it best out of this situation. And look how you are dressed - maybe it was partially your fault"

Originally Posted by nulle

And Hanna - your post looks like:
If you said this to some woman after she was raped:
"Well, you are not the only woman that was raped. And you probably enjoyed this a little bit, didn't you. And the man that did this to you - he looks rather charming, and you should understand him - he really wanted sex - he did not do it because he hates you. You should make it best out of this situation. And look how you are dressed - maybe it was partially your fault"

Ok, interesting.

But here is another version of this story:

The rapist denies the rape and has not been convicted. There are mixed views as to what actually took place.

Yet, 20 years after the rape, the woman is still talking obsessively about the rape, hating all men, discriminates againts men whenever she gets the chance and blames men for everything that is wrong in her life.

My point is rather that I understand and sympathise with her frustration and sadness but I think it's time she moves on, for her own good, for the good of her children and for the good of the innocent men who happen to cross paths with her.

We are now opening a contest for the best metaphor for Latvia-Russia relations
My turn: Russian Latvians remind me of divorced couple's children who love both their parents and can't decide with whom to live and whom to see only on weekends.
Poor little baby Linderman... Sorry, I can't stop thinking up silly things

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.

Prove.

They did exactly that

Nonsense.

I can't believe there is only one Latvian person on this forum and the thread has been going for 5 pages.

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).

If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

Originally Posted by Hanna

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).

If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

You can get "free" citizenship for special services to the nation. Nulle's trolldom might count...

Anyway, Hanna's position on this question - no question about the need for Latvian localization, and no question about the wrong-headedness of the current policies towards the Russian-speaking minority - is absolutely correct and wouldn't be questioned by anyone with any understanding of the National Question in general, language planning policy theory, nation-building, language acquisition, civic rights or plain old democracy.

A good presentation of the situation in Latvia can be found in this article (pdf, quick view): https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...tdt9hJYNn2A16g

or direct for download here: sh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:128103/FULLTEXT01

One thing that is clear from this (and this expression will be mine, not the author's) is that official Latvian language acquisition policy towards Russian-speakers is like teaching someone a language by writing some words on a baseball bat and smashing it into the learner's mouth.

I've just returned from a three-four day trip to Riga. I'm very interested in languages and was hoping to find some good materials for learning the language and something about it. Especially I hoped to find some hot-shit learning materials in Russian. The Soviet legacy in language teaching is excellent - I've seen this clearly myself in relation to textbooks in Hungarian and Czech from the days of the Stalinist occupation. I found nothing. A couple of short, not very clearly thought out textbooks for English speakers. I was extremely disappointed. I knew the Latvian majority practises discrimination against the Russian-speaking population, but the extent of this discrimination horrified me. Vindictive doesn't begin to cover it. I'm still interested in the language for linguistic reasons, but from now on I study with a clothes-peg on my nose.

It was fascinating to see what a miserable place Riga was - as far as the faces and demeanour of the people were concerned. But I suppose if you've been enjoying the benefits of capitalist freedom and democracy for twenty years and feel totally betrayed in every respect you've got every right to look miserable. People aren't even this glum in Helsinki a bad week in November.

The thing that best sums it all up for me is that the State Language Centre is part of the Ministry of Justice, and has policing and punitive powers. State Language Inspectors spying on and harassing members of a national minority going about their daily business. 1984. (A book I almost bought in Latvian to practise reading using a familiar text, and regretted not buying from the moment I left the bookshop. I couldn't find the Master and Margarita in Latvian, but given the state of affairs in the country 1984 would have been more appropriate...)

Thanks for listening. Paldies. Спасибо!

You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle

Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.
But here my rather moderate views are called 10/10 patriotism
And there are Russian politicians that think like me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbuyye3Fxa0

but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others. Prove.

Here we go again. Maybe in Russia it was not the case, but in occupied territories it was.

Poor little baby Linderman

Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич

They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have

There are a lot of Russians that do not like USSR - why should I?

Originally Posted by nulle

Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.

Does it mean that you simply like to troll people? (no offense, but turning your head into stone about any subject is not the best way find the truth. Besides, there are at least two different truths to any subject).

Originally Posted by nulle

When Russian tanks will come in?

Oh, you're crying wolf...

Originally Posted by nulle

Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич

I read about Linderman. FSB kicked him out of Russia to his birthplace - Latvia.
Btw, Linderman has a medal "Defender of barricades" because he was participating in 1991 events in Riga as a journalist for the Russian version of the "Atmoda" newspaper.
I understand that there was no fighting and barricades had mainly symbolic meaning, but nevertheless Linderman participated in protests for the Latvian independence and against USSR membership among many other Latvians and Russian Latvians.

PS: Linderman is a Jew born in Riga, but Russian is his native language.
PPS: He has Lenin's first name and patronymic. It is just a coincidence I think, but very fortunate one. Apparently, he is a life-long revolutionary.