Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

Originally Posted by nulle

And if there is ethnical dictatorship - why Russians better stay here and not move to Russia?

Этот прием в демагогии называется "неявное умолчание" - возражение против некоего утверждения, которое в моей фразе явно отсутствует.

- Вы утверждаете, что у вас болит рука. Что же вы ее не отрубите?
- Раз нет хлеба, ешь пирожные!

Referendum for the Russian language as the second state language in Latvia is scheduled for tomorrow. It's time to remember some not so fair things about the language situation in this country. Here are some facts:

1. Russian language descriptions on goods and meds are often hidden behind a sticker with Latvian language description. Funny enough, there may be descriptions in ten other languages, but only Russian is routinely chosen to be removed in that way.
2. Center for the state language forbade to publish social advertising designed to raise awareness of cancer in Russian.
3. There are no signs in Russian and no way to communicate with the authorities in Russian even in overwhelmingly Russophone municipalities.
4. Language "police" fines employers for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work (I wonder how do they measure it...).
5. Higher education in Russian is forbidden in educational institutions funded by the state while higher education in EU languages is allowed.

So I'm not surprised that Russian Latvians are not very happy with such treatment of their native language. I think it's impossible to win the referendum, but may be it will show the authorities that there is the need for a change though.

Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new words that sound funny or retarded.

The users of this software will mostly be people who work in shops.... (??) Not likely to be university graduates etc
Do you think it would make sense to offer the software in EITHER Latvian and Russian instead? They are given a legal text to agree to - which they must understand. Also, they need to do quite a lot of administration inside the software. As a comparison, most of the Dutch users do not read English well enough to use the software in English - and they are known for a very high level of English there. For Hong Kong, for example, the users can choose "HK English" or "HK Traditional Chinese". Perhaps for Latvia, we should do "Latvia - Latvian" and maybe also "Latvia - Russian". Not a lot of extra trouble since a Russian version already exists. But a really nice and unexpected gesture towards the native Russian speakers. And I totally agree with the point that everyone in Latvia speaks Russian, in particular people in shops. It was quite impressive to hear people switch back and forth. This particular company is incredibly sensitive to cultural stuff and I am almost certain that they will want to have a Latvian version even though it's terrible economy to translate for such a small market, and does not make a lot of practical sense.
The software is only rolled out in a few countries so far, but it's being phased in gradually and Latvia on the grounds of being a new market jumps to the top of the queue. Latvia is the first Baltic expansion so there is no precedence from the other countries.

People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?

Latvia is choosing to look at this situation from a very strange (to outsiders) perspective. Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc. and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal immigrants today". Particularly since most of these "illegal immigrants" were born in the country or lived there for many decades.

Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

they want their soviet time privileges back.

Can you give some examples?

And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
"All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
"Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"

I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree to statements of this nature.

The whole point of politics is that you have different opinions on events past and present! If these voters do not support those opinions, why should they? In a democracy it's free to have your own opinion about different matters.

It's a bit similar to the anti-immigration parties across Europe which represents large parts of the population but are not given the same democratic rights as other countries to participate in debates etc.

All Latvia is doing is putting a lid on a sensitive question. The Russian speakers in Latvia did not have a lot of experience with democracy and accepted a treatment that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe. But times are changing and by alienating them and not respecting them, Latvia is creating a smoldering situation that might explode at a later time.

As for the software, I fail to see why not just ship it with all the languages it's localized for at the moment, so that you could just add Latvian and make the Latvian version release right away.

@Eric - This is a bespoke SAA solution. There is a licencing issue, extensive customization and data migration, a translation and review period, a number of legal aspects and lots of other complicated considerations involved. This is a global corporation with an extremely large number of employees, all of whom will be using this. Obviously I simplified the situation a bit since this is not a discussion about IT management.

Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here.

and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!

They are punished for that and that's fair.

that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe

Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here.

Not from Latvia.
Place where I live feels almost like Russia - you can meet Russians everywhere - they do not want to go to Russia...

yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia

And many received citizneship.
Anyway - I agree that maybe Latvian government should have done something differently back then.
Like giving citizenship to those who voted for Latvian independence.
But you have to understand situation back then.
Occupation army everywhere, huge number of immigrants that do not know Latvian and who voted against independence, Latvians almost minority in their own country (52% in whole country, ~30% in Rīga), KGB/OMON killing people in Lithuania, many more people remembering soviet crimes and atrocities...
And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).
(Even now many people refer to Soviet period as - "krievu laiki", (Russian times))

But if you look at all these post-Soviet conflicts (Tajikistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Nagorno Karabakh, etc) in 1990s and Yugoslavia - Baltics handled this situation very well.

they do not want to go to Russia...

People usually leave the country when there is no other variant or when they can get something significantly better. There are some Russians even in Tadjikistan.

And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).

Russians did not rule. Look at the Soviet leaders. Most of them are not ethnic Russians.
And actually, do you suffer the presence of these people? Would it be better if all the Russians were exiled?

A court* removed a candidate from a ballot** because she lacks the required language skills: Candidate confirms she will appeal decision removing her from ballot, cabrera, english, appeal - News - YumaSun.

*Arizona Supreme Court.
**The ballot to the San Luis city council.

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

Он Нил, а не Нильс.

Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

Originally Posted by nulle

Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!

Originally Posted by Doomer

Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!

s is the nominative ending in Latvian.

В центре событий с Анной Прохоровой 29.01.2012 - YouTube
I'm not surprised anymore that people like mishau think that we in Latvia are idolizing Nazis...

I actually was surprised about the results - didn't think that turnout and votes against would be so high.

but may be it will show the authorities that there is the need for a change though.

Yes - there might be a change - now people are considering to stop state-funded education in Russian altogether.

And according to constitution results should be interpreted a bit differently, because required 50%+1 votes should be from ALL voters, not just from those who went to referendum.
And that means that only 17% of all eligible voters supported official status for Russian.

So I'm not surprised that Russian Latvians are not very happy with such treatment of their native language.

Poor Russians - my landlord still speaks to me only in Russian, because she knows Latvian poorly - do you think I should be happy?

And anyway - what do you think would be fair?
Latvians should forget Latvian language and speak only Russian to not offend someone - ребята давайте жить дружно Stalin/Putin style?

And here Russians are more respected than they are in Russia - we do not steal their votes in elections/referendums like партия жуликов и воров does in Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZHL...layer_embedded

Originally Posted by nulle

And anyway - what do you think would be fair?

Find those bastards who put stickers right over the descriptions in Russian on packages of various merchandise in Riga shops and take their glue away for a start

Btw, referendum clearly highlighted cities that are in dire need of official status of the Russian language within their limits: Riga (36% votes in favor), Daugavpils (85%), Jelgava (25%), Liepaja (20%), Ventspils (20%), Rezekne (60%) etc.

And here Russians are more respected than they are in Russia - we do not steal their votes in elections/referendums like партия жуликов и воров does in Russia.

We just don't allow some of them to vote.