Thread: Putin's increasing police state and smth about some other countries

Interesting links, Lampada!
LKY (as they call him) took a country that was split along ethnic, religious and linguistic lines, had been exploited by colonialism and with hostile neighbours and made it rich in 25 years. I was there at their 25 year anniversary and regular people had good lives. It is a real success story and it's even better now. Interestingly there are lots of similarities between what I saw in Belarus and what Singapore is trying to do.
Build a nation where there was none before. Make people feel loyalty and be hardworking and law abiding...
Keep the streets clean and everything looking tidy etc.
Of course, LKY is more capitalist than Lukashenko, but both want to prevent their countries from being ripped off by foreign interests for any reason.

Singapore has a 0 tolerans for corruption and drugs.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Make people feel loyalty and be hardworking and law abiding...

That might sound cool while you're visiting the country as a tourist. But would you, personally, like to be made to work hard for almost no money and feel loyalty at the same time?

I think when you talk like this, you're showing a certain kind of disrespect to the citizens of the country you're talking about - like "you, the second-best, have to work hard and show no dissatisfaction about it so that I, a first class person, can enjoy visiting your country, that's what matters"...

As usual you talk nonsense Eric, most likely on purpose because you are trolling.
Obviously I would not wish for any country something that I wouldn't be willing to accept to live with myself! Being hard working and law abiding is a good ideal.

It's completely irrelevant to this forum, but my father used to live in Singapore and I spent many summer and christmas holidays there. My brother once got into very serious trouble because he broke the law there. He should have followed the law.

I think Europe as a whole would benefit from having tougher laws about yobbery (A British word for anti social behaviour on the street, hooliganism etc).
In Singapore economic necessity force all able bodied people to get a job and criminality is not an option, the penalties are too harsh. In Belarus, I think that people who aren't able to get a job themselves for a long time, are made to work doing community work such as cleaning and fixing public areas.

So if you think it is bad for people to be hard-working and law-abiding, do you support a national order where people are lazy skivers and criminals?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Basil77 what kind of leader do you think would be best for Russia?
I mean, can you think of an example of a leader in any other country or from another era in time, for example?

Yes, my political ideal is Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The situation in USA when he became a president was pretty much like in Russia in the beginning of 90s: Great Depression, gangsters everywhere, prohibition (The Dry Law) and huge corruption. But he managed to solve many of these problems. Also in my opinion his foreign policy was also very wise and good for his country.

My biggest issues with democracy anywhere, is that I think it is a hoax. Perhaps it is more a hoax in some countries than others, but I think the idea that regular people decide which way the country goes is just not true.

I can not agree with you here. I agree with Churchill that democratic system with two major parties: social-democtaric and conservative is the best system that humankind ever developed. Any power is evil, but while you have an instrument of "checks and balances" you can at least keep them in the limits of "lesser evil". My own political views are rather social-democratic, maybe with a bit of nationalistic (in the good sence) touch. But of course by "democracy" I don't mean that disgusting chaos that we had in 90s. I don't see connection between democtaric change of the ruling party and not working laws. Otherwise, I think that in real democracy laws must work equally for everyone, not like in modern Russia when a hungry person who steals a loaf of bread goes to jail for two years but at the same time a corrupt official who steals billions in the worst case just loses his job and goes to London to spend what he stole.

One of my favourite leaders is Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore. He is a relatively sympathetic person, but also a dictator. His policies lifted Singapore to become one of the richest countries in the world in 25 years, and the wealth is not that unevenly distributed. Regular people like teachers, secretaries and shopkeepers have a good lifestyle there, and there is good free healthcare, education etc. He didn't do it to become rich himself, just because he really wanted the best for his country. Some of the things he has done, I wouldn't have supported and he is more of a pro-capitalist than me, but I respect his integrity and I think that on the whole he has really helped his country and not let anyone push it around.
Most people in Singapore really like him.

Well, he is a very rare exception, such rulers are born once in 1000 years. Also he has a rather small enclave to run, I doubt that he could be such succesful with a big country. But although sometimes I want his anti-corruption measures to be put to Russian corrupt officials, I would rather live here in Russia than in a country like Singapore. I'm too "раздолбай" for that. I like, for example, to drink beer with my friends on a bench in a park and what if I (accidentally) get a bit drunk and while that (accidentally of course!) drop a cigarette butt to the ground? In Singapore I guess I would be immediately lined up infront of a fire squad and shot on site. No thanks, I like it in Russia more.

Originally Posted by Basil77

But although sometimes I want his anti-corruption measures to be put to Russian corrupt officials, I would rather live here in Russia than in a country like Singapore. I'm too "раздолбай" for that.

Now, THAT is a state of mind of the bulk of the Russian nation. I think it's the national trait which in many ways DEFINES a true Russian. Those who are not like that prefer it to leave the country or stay here suffering miserably. No, I am not stereotypic, not in the slightest.

Therefore, we must always balance between a total chaos and a total dictatorship, a tyranny even. That 'oscillation', I think, make us believe we're still alive. Something must always happen in Russia. Perhaps it is even our chance for survival in the world.

Ramil, you are back! This forum is no fun without you!

@Basil77
I did not know that Churchill had said that.

But I don't like the British and American system with only two big parties, or the idea that only one person can represent a district.
This means that there is no point in voting for anyone other than somebody from either of the two main parties.
A vote for any other party is going to be wasted, since they could never win the "seat".
That is the situation in Britain. To make matters worse, there is very little difference between the Labour views and the Conservative views.

It's democracy in the sense that you have a fair election. However if I have any political views other than the mainstream, then my views will never be represented.
There will be opinions which many people in the country care about, which are never represented in the parliament.
For example Environment, Christian ethics, Radical philosophies etc. That is the situation in the UK I think.

It's a stable situation, but I am not sure it's really that democratic.
Only about half of those eligible even bother to vote. The rest probably feel there is not a lot of point.

However, if you have one election for the national parliament where all votes count and another one for local districts then there is better representation of the actual views that people hold.
Then, as long as a certain minimum percentage vote for a party, it will send representative(s) to the parliament, representing the percentage of votes they got.

That way, you can have environmentalist, nationalists, Christians, radical left wing people and others in the parliament.
They are very good at raising the alarm about issues which are really important to them, but which mainstream parties don't care about.

As for Singapore, you just get a big fine for doing the things you mentioned. And if you can't pay, it prison or community service.
The fines are Singapore, not US dollars.

I agree that running Russia and running Singapore are two completely different things that cannot be compared.
I can't wait to see Russia and make up my own mind about whether Edinaya Rossia is doing a good job under the circumstances.... or not!

What is a "durian"??? Looks very mysterious! Never heard the word.




On Social democracy: Yes, I lean towards that too.
But the social democracy that I like is the OLD style, the one that built up Sweden to great welfare state in the 30s, 40s and 50s.
Basically a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism in the interest of building a fair society where there is enough private initiative to keep things rolling. Whether it paves the road for a future revolution as the official ideology is/was I don't really care because there has never actually been a revolution in a Social Democratic country.

The problem with Social Democracy is that it has gone off the track!
First they built the country up to one of the best the world has EVER seen. No doubt about that.
But they literally ruined it.
It started in the mid 1960s.

In the 1960s 1970s it became all the rage to get interested in 3rd world countries that were communist. They had to be supported with tax money, lots of massive aid projects and investments, innumerable friendship leagues, etc... It was just silly and very expensive. Social democracy should have continued to focus on building OUR state... but instead everything had to be International, 3rd world solidarity etc. They totally lost the plot!

The next big thing was immigration. Just open up the borders, literally. Anyone is welcome, particularly (initially) those from right wing dictatorships who said they were persecuted. Later, some really dubious people from very dangerous parts of the world, people who had little or no chance of ever integrating. In greater and greater numbers. And more internationalism, anti-racism. This in my opinion was a huge mistake.
Nobody could disagree with this, or he'd be labelled a racist and totally stigmatised.

Then appoint Social Democratic bishops until Christianity is turned into the "Comrade Jesus' Humanitarian Ideology" as some call it (after a popular childrens book, "Comrade Jesus".) I learnt all the 6 verses of "Internationale" on my Church of Sweden confirmation camp, just to give you an idea. Seriously. I really resent what Social democracy has done to the church. They've cooled down with this a bit now, after the extreme left wing ideologies went out of fashion. But the damage to the church is already done. It has lost all credibility from a religious perspective.

Then feminism, in extreme.
And the latest big thing is pro-homosexuality. It has lost all proportions. Right at this moment in Stockholm, the Pride festival is going on. As a result, the homosexual flag is all over town and on the buses. I really don't like that. Nothing against gays, but a 7 day festival??! Gay marriages, gays adopting childrens and gender change surgery for free on national health. Endless talking about this lifestyle in all media....

That's the end of my anti Social-democracy-rant!
To sum it up, I support it in principle, but not in the form it's been in post 1960s.
I can't vote for them after what they have done.

I suppose you heard about the crazy terrorist in Norway? He hated the Social Democrats for exactly the reasons I listed here, only he was crazy and obsessive. There are lots of people throughout Scandinavia who have these views, and sadly he is beginning to become a bit of a legend, despite the fact that he is a complete psychopath. He hated Social democracy so much that he wanted to destroy the next generation.

Hanna, translated into Swedish 'durian' is 'durian'. It's a fruit.

Originally Posted by Windup Merchantski

Hanna, translated into Swedish 'durian' is 'durian'. It's a fruit.

I had not heard of it!!!
Interesting!

I didn't know them by sight either. However I often get a waft of pong from the buggers when I pass by this here fruit shop on my way to work.

Back to the topic:




Нателла Болтянская

Гаечка

Какая, в общем, разница, быть против или за,
Ведь всё случится так, а не иначе.
Он молод и спокоен, он смотрит вам в глаза
И действует отнюдь не наудачу.
Обязанности всяко важнее, чем права,
Права - поставить там, где скажут, галочку.
Он говорит полезные и важные слова,
Закручивая гаечку за гаечкой.

Отцам-иезуитам вполне достойный сын,
Он ценности и цели обозначил.
Над выбритой губою мерещатся усы,
И френч растет из лацканов Версаче.
Покуда не забрали, давай-ка наливай
Судьба ль нам быть описанными Галичем?
Он говорит полезные и важные слова
И тихо крутит гаечку за гаечкой.

Он сделает, как хочет. Он внятен и суров,
Но гибок, хоть глядится несгибаемым.
Свобода - несогласных крутить в бараний рог,
И методы печально узнаваемы.
Безбашенный период дискуссий и бравад
Сменился перспективою пугающей.
Он говорит полезные и важные слова,
Закручивая гаечку за гаечкой.

Увы, уже проиграно, что ставилось на кон.
Мы строимся повзводно и поротно
Он - нами же рожденный и вскормленный дракон,
Который не дождется Ланселота.
Осталось ли дыханья - колючку разорвав,
В бега уйти, другие берега ища?
Он говорит полезные и важные слова,
И тихо крутит гаечку за гаечкой.

I reply to my own thread since no one talks about this??!??!?

Putin plays to the crowd as he prepares presidential return - Europe - World - The Independent

"Mr Putin is eligible for another two six-year terms, meaning he could be in power until 2024."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/wo...ntial-bid.html

http://www.isria.com/pages/13_November_2011_48.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/wo...arsenyevo.html

Russian presidential poll in March | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


The farce in Russia with no one opposing the modification of the Russian constitution so that Putin can have presidential post through two terms of two six-year terms?!?

But, no Russians bring this up here? Maybe the mod will censor me? Who owns MR? I am afraid of all these police states all over so-called 'democratic states.' But, no one talks about his on any forum anywhere. Why?!?

Russia has no one criticizing this although finally some Russians recognize the deceit and manipulation (read the articles above) but since Putin's mafia and money changers control the media, only a small fraction is expressed and escapes.

I read here of Republican Americans and those wanting more Government so I wonder about humankind. Stupid people who pursue the politicians who destroy their countries so they/you reward them by granting them your right of voting?!? It is sad no one speaks for Russia. At least, the USA has Ron Paul and the UK has Nigel Farage. Who does Russia have?!? No one. Russians are used to theft, deception and manipulation or maybe the media will not report on any critics but at least, where is anyone in the Russian parliament demanding transparency and accountability? The Russian mafia would kill him/her?

Originally Posted by Pavelov

... Maybe the mod will censor me? ...

You will be censored only if you engage in personal attacks or insult someone here.

" At least, the USA has Ron Paul and the UK has Nigel Farage."

I just blew coffee down my nose. Thanks for that.

Good grief.

Originally Posted by Pavelov

But, no Russians bring this up here? Maybe the mod will censor me? Who owns MR? I am afraid of all these police states all over so-called 'democratic states.' But, no one talks about his on any forum anywhere. Why?!?

Man, the whole Russian Internet is awash with anti-Putin sentiments. Where have you been looking?

I have some questions!

Ok, I understand that lots of people don't like Putin and that the massive victory of his party in the last local elections was rather suspicious...

• My impression of why people on this forum don't like Putin is mainly because he is financially involved with lots of elite people / oligarchs and that he does not allow large manifestations by his opponents. Is this right?

• Are there any other clear & specific reasons why you don't like Putin - can you explain what they are?

• Or maybe some people here actually think Putin is more or less good for Russia and don't mind if Edinaya Rossia wins again?

• There ARE large groups of people who really like Putin though... who are they? Why do they like him?

• Is liking Medvedev as a president synonymous with liking Putin, or is there a difference between the two... ?

• If anyone dares being bold and frank, explain which party you would like to see win the next election in Russia, and why, then I'd love to hear it! Russian politics is really interesting and I have no preconcieved opinions.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I

• Are there any other clear & specific reasons why you don't like Putin - can you explain what they are?

People don't like current state of living in Russia and they need somebody to blame. Putin is the guy
People don't like Medvedev either and before they didn't like Yeltsin

Also, in Russia people divided on some who use Internet and some who don't

Current polls for December 4th election show that Internet users would rather vote for КПРФ - more than 50% (КПРФ are communists) than for Единая Россия (pro-government party). They saying that КПРФ is the only real opposition to ЕР and they(users) don't like either, as usual - молодёжь против ветра
People who don't have Internet would vote for Единая Россия - 50% or more
So you will not find truth on forums

This is interesting reading about elections in Russia - http://gonzoblog.ru/post/2011/11/10/...k_oni_est.aspx

People don't like current state of living in Russia and they need somebody to blame. Putin is the guy
People don't like Medvedev either and before they didn't like Yeltsin

Из Чикаго, конечно, виднее, но это, извините, полный бред. Ненависть к Ельцину не идёт ни в какое сравнение с недовольством Путиным или Медведевым, которые, несмотря ни на что, весьма и весьма популярны.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Из Чикаго, конечно, виднее, но это, извините, полный бред. Ненависть к Ельцину не идёт ни в какое сравнение с недовольством Путиным или Медведевым, которые, несмотря ни на что, весьма и весьма популярны.

+500

Originally Posted by Lampada

Нателла Болтянская
Какая, в общем, разница, быть против или за...
И тихо крутит гаечку за гаечкой.

Какую гаечку?
И почему эту гаечку видят только евреи? Какой-то слишком революционный народ.