Thread: North Korean strike timed?

Days after an apparent new nuke plant was revealed (in N Korea) we get an artillery strike apparently killing 2 civilians. Was this timed?

South Korea and the USA were carrying out a military exercise RIGHT on the border of North Korea. North Korea warned them; "if you fire rockets over our airspace, then we will retaliate." SK and the US fired rockets over North Korean airspace, despite the warning... . North Korea retaliated, as they had said they would.
The story as it appeared in mainstream Western papers was heavily skewed. Ie propaganda.

Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?

I think it is because they want every opportunity to depict North Korea as a very dangerous and evil country, to pave the way for future US control of North Korea. In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone. But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.

I think both North Korea and South Korea are playing very clever mind games with each other.

As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that. Using nukes is suicidal and the only reason a country wants it is as a deterrent to an invasion. South Korea already has US nukes. Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages.

What have Russian papers been saying about this?

Nothing special, I think N. Korea facing upcoming food shortage needs some action to tell its people that they're hungry because of the southerners and the Americans.

From my understanding North Korea fired missles over Japan. I also believed we warned them not to as well. Based on that we are then free to start bombing whatever we see fit. Because we warned you. Or is that propadanga? I also believe these excercises have been occuring for sometime say 40 years. Seems a little late to start shelling cilivians.

Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?
Where else would they be held Las Vegas? These joint excerises have been going on for some time. This is not some new phenomenon.

As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that.
One nuclear bomb is no joke. And that is plenty to be worried about. Actually i dont think its sucide to fire a nuke if the otherside does not have one. S Korea nor Japan have a nuclear device. I am pretty sure if the N Korea did fire a nuclear bomb at the South the reprecussions would not be sucide. Because the US would not fire a nuke at them. Cant China would probably declare war on the US.

In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone.
That cant be true. If you want to be left alone you dont sink your neighbors sub. Shell there people. Attempt to fire missles over Japan immediately after you just successfully underground tested a nuclear bomb. You dont threaten them with anniliation on a regular basis. Maybe thats what you call trying to be left alone...but i dont.

Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages.
Its possible and easier to do this an not have weapons grade material. That has not been the approach they have taken. Rather they have gone out of there way to develop weapons grade material. Now who is spewing propaganda.

But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.
How exactly are we going to own this real estate? Do we own Germany? Do we own France? Do we own Japan? Do we own South Korea? Do we own Afghanistan? Do we own Iraq? If anything all of these places have become are worst competiors and headaches for us.

I am not sure how you sleep at night. You rush to the defense of a horrible dictator. But i suppose you probably think that is propaganda as well.

Well then, before I start, I wan't to state that I am most certainly not advocating N. Korea here.
Still, I'm pretty sure that US owns Iraq and Afghanistan, and probably France and Germany as well ))) What I mean is that US 'diplomacy' dictates many things other countries have to live with. Some Western European countries are more skilled at this game sometimes manage to work around this 'American inconvenience' and even try to swindle back some benefits. What concerns so called 'third world' I would say that US not merely owns the puppet governments they put there but in some sense they govern these countries. CIA controls nearly two thirds of world's heroin production and still they say they want 'peace' in Afghanistan. It's all for money.
Now, about North Korea - I seriously doubt North Korea poses a threat to anyone but themselves. Who in Washington would want to have a united Korea there with further integration of the South-East Asia? Who would want to weaken US political influence there? US military would then have to pack and leave the region entirely and the US military is the only thing US economical powers rests upon right now. If they really wanted, the North Korean government could be overthrown within several weeks from within. But nobody in the West wants that. Having some limited conflict there gives US a legitimate reason to stay there, ask for funding of this in Congress, to give jobs to tens of thousands of military and civilian personnel, etc. It is economically impractical for the US to unite Korea. A little war would be even better, but wars tend to get out of hand so they're very careful right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the North was provoked (but you won't see this on Fox News).

How exact do we diplomatically dictate anything to Germany? Are you saying we rig there elections? If we dictate what goes on how then did the Euro come about? This is the prime competion for the dollar and has caused the dollar to to become less stable because of it. Which has caused the value of dollars being held by the welath billionares to become worth less valueable on the open market. Certainly if we controlled Europe we would not have let the EURO come about. The only influence we have there is the influence they give us. Which is considerable less then you think it is. Far less then owning it. If we dipolamtically controlled Europe we should also have unbeliable trade deals with them. Which we dont. We run a trade defict with them and have for a long time. How exactly can we be so damn powerful as you allege and be so completly incompentent.

Here we go with the military complex theory again. For one I have met many US generals as a military brat. In large part they are not that smart. You act like they are some master puppeters. The military is only 5% of the US ecomony. 5% of the economy is not the crazy gestalt you make it out to be. Yet again if it is how exactly did Obama or Clinton get elected. For that matter how did this crazy insane military complex let the Soviet Union collapse. You probably think that 911 was in inside job also. Also i am not going to argue with someone who thinks the CIA controls 2/3 of the herion production. That is outright conspiracy clap trap.

As for Europe -- I didn't say you control their economy, but US probably CAN ruin any european economy within days (this is already a form control). Then there's NATO. US dollar isn't worth a tenth of its current market value. Then, when US says that this country is bad and noone's to deal with it everyone else obeys even against their interests and sometimes -- against plain logic. Third world deals with dollars because if they don't there will be another 'peace keeping operation' in their region. And of course us dollar is the ONLY reserve world's currency and everyone's aware of that. Euro cannot compete with dollar, in fact Euro is probably even less stable to begin with. Federal Reserve prints green paper in trillions and exchanges them with something of real value (oil, gold, energy plants, real estate, etc). IN EXCHANGE OF GREEN PAPER!
Do you think the rest of the world is just so stupid that nobody sees that? Everybody knows, but who's going to argue with aircraft carriers and cruise missiles scattered all over the world?

About heroin - you can dig out the stats. During the period of American occupation the heroin production has QUADRUPLED there. Taliban used to burn the fields and was the only government there who managed to actually reduce it. (No, I'm not a Taliban sympathizer, but I don't flee from the facts). Americans have their faults but they were never known to give anything for free. It's against their nature. So when they say that the military's there to protect someone else's interests I laugh.

You say that the generals are not that smart, that's true for the most of them, but I doubt those who make real decisions are that stupid, and of course there're politicians around to order things around.

Interesting comment above. Yes, I think that the US could ruin any European country it choose to, pretty quickly if it wanted. And if financial sanctions and media propaganda didn't do the job, then they have more soldiers in Europe than any individual European country and plenty of weapons, including nukes.
But I didn't know any of those facts about the Afghan heroin! Go figure!

Nerms you are debating with people who are not American and don't see the world from an American perspective.

Why would we want America to dominate our countries, or anyone elses?
We are able to look at America objectively, while you have a biased view since it's your own nationality and since you watch news channels like Fox (propaganda news, according to everyone east of the atlantic).

I'd like it better if North America consisted of smaller countries, like Europe, instead of one giant country that can never seem to get enough control over the the world (financially, in terms of oil and politically)

I *hope* that the financial downturn will cause America to lose it's grip over the rest of the world and become a normal country that minds its own business instead of telling everybody else how to run their countries while cringing them junk culture/food and buying up their natural resources.

I lived in Europe for 5 years. I am well aware of European's opinion. Which was quite a shock when i lived there. What i learned then is what I am relearning now. Its pointless to argue. I do not concede the point. But i will concede its pointless to argue.

I can say one thing the economic downturn is kicking us hard. I know this because i can just look around at my work at stores. So i am sure you should be happy about that. But if everything you say is true....you should be more afraid of us now more then ever.

I will now go eat my wheaties with my apple pie while watching american football and fox new while polishing my .45 and singing God Bless America. Or whatever the current sterotype of an American is.

Personally I don't see a single reason why US need so many military bases scattered all over the world, but well, if you really need them badly -- it's up to you. I know you'll need them for defense against those who hate all Americans, but really, maybe it's time to think it over and ask yourself why half of the world hates USA? (I used to be one of them too, but reconsidered. It's your politicians that I don't disagree with, but many Americans I know personally and from this forum are quite nice, actually).

But as they say, being determines consciousness, so you'll never see the world from my perspective and I'll never see it from yours.
One thing I can agree with you -- the arguments ARE pointless. So, I'll just go put my fur hat on, drink some vodka and go scare a few bears from the streets singing the International.

Originally Posted by Nerms

I will now go...

Originally Posted by Ramil

So, I'll just go...

A real gentleman is eager to take a pedestrian path go even before another gentleman provides him with the destination.

I wonder where Hanna is going to go...

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I wonder where Hanna is going to go...

В Америку!

Nope, she'll go to her Swedish family to have a Smörgåsbord with herring and eel listening ABBA and Ace of base.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Smörgåsbord

ZOMG! That's how they call it. )))

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Nope, she'll go to her Swedish family to have a Smörgåsbord with herring and eel listening ABBA and Ace of base.

Haha!!! After that I'll have sex under the midnight sun, ride a raindeer and brush my blonde hair... It's so great in Sweden!!!

(oops I am in exile in the UK and it's raining all the time.... and the whole country is falling to pieces with the new Tory governments "reforms".)

Originally Posted by Hanna

Haha!!! After that I'll have sex under the midnight sun, ride a raindeer and brush my blonde hair...

Way to go, Brünhild!

Originally Posted by Hanna

In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone

Do the people of N. Korea want to be left alone with that dictatorship? I bet you wouldn't. If the crappy dictator turns the people into animals and doesn't actually plan to turn them back, then I suppose, intervention of the world community is really needed.

To save some of your time Eric. You are about to engage in arguing with a brick wall.

Ill try an explain where they are coming from. To allieviate your curiosity.

They think the people in North Korea probably dont live under that much hardship. Its probably just US propaganda so we can sell more McDonalds hamburgers or to sell more military aircraft etc. They will then say they probably have more rights then Americans, why dont you liberate yourselves first.
And even if they did live under great hardship( which remains to be seen) a war is far worse then the cure. Its better that the situation be left alone and let it sort itself out naturally. Military presense itself is what causes Kim to act the way he does. If we left, things would be much better for them anyhow. Kim would likely be nicer to them feed them more in there cages. And even if we ejected Kim its likely the ensuing chaos some new dictator would emerge. This is there great wisdom. They feel the US is a loose cannon who cant see farther then the barrel of there gun. That the US is far more of a dictator then Kim has or ever will be. This belief system in large part comes from a strong pacifist tendency that has developed for many reasons. That concludes my explaination, I hope i saved some time of your life.

Nerms, you're laying a bit thick. We're not that unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Do the people of N. Korea want to be left alone with that dictatorship? I bet you wouldn't.

They would. You wouldn't probably believe it, but they ADORE their government (most of them). There is some dissent, of course, but they're told that their lives are miserable because of the South and the Americans and they believe it. It's hard to believe for you, maybe, because you don't know how propaganda brainwashing can affect human minds, but those like me who was born in the USSR times will understand and believe this. In order for N. Korean government to fall you'd need several years of heavy couter-propaganda campaign first. Military assault on North Korea will only strengthen their resolve - they will defend not only their home, but the very core of their ideas about what's right and what's wrong.
Asians do not think individually, but consider themselves as a part of whole, a nation. They have collectivist minds and individual values do not loom very large in their views.

I have actually been in North Korea. It was in the late 1980s or maybe 1990, and I was in my teens. It's very poor country! Everything new looked like it was modelled on the USSR although the quality seemed worse. However, they had really nice public facilities like a swimming pool complex, amusement park, adventure playgrounds and some good museums, both in the capital and in another city that my brother and I went to. There were colourful murals and mosaics on the walls and traditional costumes were common.

All the people we spoke to seemed really sweet, honest and friendly. We spent a great day on the beach there - that was just like in any other country. However we were with a guide all the time. There were almost no shops, anywhere. We were taller than absolutely everyone in the whole country!

I didn't know anything about the country before arriving, other than my that my father warned my brother and I not to say anything negative about Kim-Il-Sen (president) because it would be offensive to the North Koreans and might cause trouble for him. Kim Il Sen was like a god there, but my brother and I had never even heard of him. It seemed silly to us and we joked about it quite a lot.

But the adoration of the people for Kim Il Sen felt very genuine. He is a liberation hero to them. It seemed like the whole country had a one united purpose; restoring national pride after Japanese occupation for decades, and rebuilding the country which was flattened by the USA in the Korean war. It felt a bit like the whole country was in a big project together.

There was so much pride in their country - despite it being poor - which they knew. The thing they were proud about was how fast they rebuild the country from total destruction. Japan as a colonial power treated Korea terribly... and just when they were beginning to recover from that; the whole country is bombed to pieces by the USA. Who can blame them for being a bit paranoid?

I came away thinking the country was poor, a bit strange but that the people were very proud, but nice. I don't think the average person there felt very oppressed - at least not when I was there. But of course, I didn't ask.. and there might be plenty of people who felt that way, that i never saw.

But from media reports its clear that they have quite gruesome prisons; a bit like "gulags". Probably the state meddles far too much in peoples life, but that's true for lots of countries.

The biggest problem they have now must surely be that they have food shortages and no medicines or oil/electicity. Anyone who really cared about North Koreans should try to help with that.

The Koreans should be left to sort out their differences without any meddling by any other country. I neither support North Korea, nor would I wish it to be overthrown. How the Koreans live in their own country is not my problem.

On the flight back to Japan my dad said that North Korea owed his company millions; it just took delivery of some goods a few years earlier, and never paid a penny. The trip had been about trying to secure payment in return for spare parts that they needed.

Plus, I agree with Ramil: Asians LIKE to be in a collective and follow a leader who they worship. It's part of their culture...Happens in Japan too, in businesses and with the emperor before that. And in China etc.