Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Ok, we get it. You don't like Russians.
Is there any valid point in this stream of consciousness? Like, on topic?

IMHO - It illustrates the dangers of combining poor education with an overdose of propaganda. Sorry but he was asking for it.

Tragic to hear that your dog died, KLAPA - perhaps you had a fight with your Russian - Ukrainian wife, or something. I still think your comments in the thread are outrageous! You are plain rude to come in here and start hollering hostile and aggressive accusations about Russians. I am sure there are plenty of places online where you can vent your feelings -- this is not the place.

But hey, let's just set up a few big ol' US Army bases in the Ukraine to teach that Russian scum to speak Ukrainian (preferably with an American accent) whether they like it or not -eh? Democracy and Human rights ftw! And throw in a few "defensive" nukes pointed at Moscow while you're at it.... Problem solved!

That seems to be just the sort of solution that you'd favour!

Originally Posted by LXNDR

if French committed those crimes against the people of Canada (not talking about indigenous population), maybe their language doesn't deserve to have the official status IN Canada

Sorry, what crimes did Russians commit in Ukraine? Maybe when Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire they treated it like subordinate, I don't know. But in the 20th century the Soviet Union actually reunited Ukrainian people - Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with its mostly Ukrainian population were taken from Poland and given to Ukraine (1939). Later Soviets gave Ukraine luxurious gift - the Crimea, a peninsula on the northern coast of the Black Sea and a part of Russia back then (1954). It is clear that Russians helped Ukraine to expand its territory and escape Polish and German (who were not so keen on preserving Ukrainian culture, religion and language) dominance. Thanks to these developments Ukraine emerged eventually as an independent state with one of the biggest areas in Europe. Russians lived in its eastern regions for centuries, and the Crimea was given to Ukraine with its mostly Russian population. How could it be that Russians in Ukraine do not deserve official recognition of their mother tongue after all that?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well it's clear that a large proportion of Ukrainians prefer to speak Russian over Ukrainian. What is the problem with having two official languages and double signs? Who is against that, and why?

Against that are those who are pro-Europe.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

but in the Baltic states Russian population predominantly consists of occupiers and their descendants

I wonder how is it to be legally considered "occupier" in a country where you was born.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Of course MANY Ukrainian's speak Russian language "ethnically" - yet some speak such because they were FORCED to do such by the Soviet boot on their necks.

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

Of course the contemporary Russian citizen can no more be held accountable for the sins of the Soviet than the contemporary German citizen for the sins of the Nazi - but many people do not understand that.

LOL. If you give independence to Moscow oblast and put regional nationalists in charge, they also will claim that Moscow oblast was suppressed by Moscow for thousands of years, so that all who came from Moscow and their descendants are "occupiers" and their rights should be restricted.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The "Allies" (read that USA, UK, Canada, et al) left Europe after four years - the Russian's left after 50 years!

What do you mean? There are US military bases in Germany (unlike those of Russia) and all of Europe is in Nato. Also as many pointed out, you have to know English to get a good job. So it is doubtful that the Americans "left" whatever do you mean.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Also - nearly all of them I know (maybe 5 or 6) say that there was NO "indigenous" Russian speakers until the "occupation".

Are you serious? native Russian speakers were 12 % of the population in the pre-war Latvia.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I know this sounds terrible but I wish the Baltic people would stop their victim mentality and look to the future. If they want to be Europeans in the EU, then behave like it! Leave the past where it belongs and move on! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Being bilingual with Russian will eventually turn out to be a huge advantage - if they don't take it someone else will.

This will never happen because the EU and the western human rights institutions approve such policy. The Baltic states constantly rate high at various democracy indexes, freedom ratings and so on, produced by Freedom House, Amnesty International and so on, despite having up to 40% of population stripped of their citizenship and having imposed harsh restrictions on them, strikingly resembling those the initial Nazi legislation against Jews. They not only cannot participate in elections, but also cannot occupy various positions such as lawers, firefighters or pharmacists.

It should be noted that the only way to get the citizenship for them is to pass the exams which not only include the language test, but also require them to explain the official interpretation of history, that is to call their parents "occupiers" and to count the Latvian Waffen SS as heroes. Not all people are ready to do so.

It also should be noted that all those people were not citizenship-less initially. In addition to the Soviet Union citizenship they had the citizenship of the respective republics which was guaranteed by the constitutions of the respective soviet republics. So loosing their citizenship was not a natural process of the USSR dissolution, but was organized deliberately by the legislative bodies which they themselves voted for.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

as far as Russian speaking population is concerned, i think that unfortunately its large part represents mentality alien and at times hostile to the Western world, therefore for a society which associates itself with this world it poses considerable hindrance.

This resembles to me the infamous "totalitarian genes" theory that alleged that Russians, Serbs, Belorussians had genes favoring totalitarianism, so to protect democracy those people should be prosecuted and/or eliminated.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did.

Was not Yugoslavian government imposed by the US in 1990s? Was not Greece government imposed by force after WWII?

Originally Posted by KLAPA

So - do you DENY that Russia FORCIBLY OCCUPIED pre balitica?

I am just wondering about your own perception of "history" here.

Well, possibly many of the Baltic peoples were not happy with the unification with the USSR, but actually an invasion by Nazi Germany was anticipated and the governments had to choose between the two evils, as they saw it, and choose the USSR. It is known that Roosevelt during the war asked Stalin to repeat the unification referendums in those republics after the war, because the pre-war referendums were influenced by the immence threat by Germany. Stalin rejected this proposal, saying that the pre-war referendums legally valid even if they were made in a difficult international situation.

So it is possibly true that the majority of those people did not like the idea to join the USSR for ever very much, but it is also true that they made their choice between Germany and the USSR in the pre-war situation. They possibly thought that Germany will not be bold enough to attack the USSR and that they would be able to leave the USSR after the world war is over.

Originally Posted by Anixx

This resembles to me the infamous "totalitarian genes" theory that alleged that Russians, Serbs, Belorussians had genes favoring totalitarianism, so to protect democracy those people should be prosecuted and/or eliminated.

no, they should not be allowed to determine national policy, that's all
not sure what Belorussians and Serbs have to do with the content of any of my posts, no need to multiply entities

Originally Posted by Anixx

I wonder how is it to be legally considered "occupier" in a country where you was born.

please do not wrench my words, why do you do this?

i said

Originally Posted by LXNDR

occupiers and their descendants

ok? see the distinction?

discussion with such attitude as you demonstrate is usually not productive

Originally Posted by xdns

Sorry, what crimes did Russians commit in Ukraine? Maybe when Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire they treated it like subordinate, I don't know. But in the 20th century the Soviet Union actually reunited Ukrainian people - Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with its mostly Ukrainian population were taken from Poland and given to Ukraine (1939). Later Soviets gave Ukraine luxurious gift - the Crimea, a peninsula on the northern coast of the Black Sea and a part of Russia back then (1954). It is clear that Russians helped Ukraine to expand its territory and escape Polish and German (who were not so keen on preserving Ukrainian culture, religion and language) dominance. Thanks to these developments Ukraine emerged eventually as an independent state with one of the biggest areas in Europe. Russians lived in its eastern regions for centuries, and the Crimea was given to Ukraine with its mostly Russian population. How could it be that Russians in Ukraine do not deserve official recognition of their mother tongue after all that?

none if you discount the operations against population in Western Ukraine, they did commit them in the Baltic states though
either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

Originally Posted by LXNDR

no, they should not be allowed to determine national policy, that's all

Well, my point of view that there are no good and bad peoples, all born with equal rights, nobody should be discriminated based on their ancestry, and there can be different views on democracy. I also think that collective punishment is unacceptable as well as prosecuting or depriving of voting rights an ethnic group to further a certain ideology to which they could be statistically in opposition.

Unfortunately this is not compatible with current western (and EU) values.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

none if you discount the operations against population in Western Ukraine, they did commit them in the Baltic states though
either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

Based on this logic the decendants of Western Ukrainians should be stripped of all rights because their ancestors helped the Nazis to clear their region from Jews and Poles. Why the alleged crimes against Western Ukarinians and the Balts are more important than the crimes against Jews, Poles and Russians? I also note that there is nothing the history has recorded about anything happening to Western Ukrainians and Balts comparable to what they did to Jews and Poles in Western Ukraine, what the Latvian SS did to Belorussians in Belorussia and the locals to the Jews in the Baltics.

Originally Posted by Anixx

I wonder how is it to be legally considered "occupier" in a country where you was born.

Nil Ushakov, the mayor of Riga, puts it right:

Мы не уезжали со своей родины. У нас граница сдвинулась. Я родился в Латвии, в Риге. Я не родился в России. Я этнический русский, у меня родной язык русский. У меня родители родом отец из Кронштадта, мама из Красноярского края. Но я родился в Риге. Пока я жил, сменился строй, сменились государства. Не я эмигрировал, страна эмигрировала. Если так можно выразиться.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

You see, if you want to draw the exact parallel, you should say that French Canadians should ban English from being a second official language.
The thing is that French Canadians arrived earlier than English settlers and, subsequently, French settlements should probably be considered Canadian and that way English actually conquered/occupied Canada. So, at the time of Confederation (=i.e. when Canada became a country) there were actually only two provinces which were interested: Quebec (mostly French speaking) and Ontario (mostly English speaking). The financial capital of Quebec was Montreal, but that city had the biggest English-speaking population in Quebec (think Riga). The official bilingualism united people in Canada, made it one country, so to speak. Allowed people to get past the wars of their ancestors.

The similar situation happened in some of the other countries with the official bilingualism. Another good example - South Africa. The Afrikaans and English were (and still are) the two official languages. That helped to unite the nation too.

I just fail to see why to re-invent the wheel and take the risk of unnecessary tension rather than using a peaceful solution that worked in the past and still works perfectly nowdays..

The other countries which used the 'boiling pot' language strategy (like the US and Israel) faced a totally different set of issues and were pressed to work out their aggressive language policies. But, I don't think that applies to Ukraine anyways.

PS.

Originally Posted by Ф.Купер

- Ну и дьявольщина! Ничего хорошего это не предвещает, - сказал Следопыт [...],
Только индейцу, развращенному хитрыми канадскими священниками, могло
прийти в голову вырезать это на своей трубке.
Ручаюсь, что негодяй молится на свой талисман всякий раз, как собирается обмануть невинную жертву или замышляет какую-нибудь чудовищную пакость. Похоже, что трубку только что обронили. Верно, Чингачгук?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I just fail to see why to re-invent the wheel and take the risk of unnecessary tension rather than using a peaceful solution that worked in the past and still works perfectly nowdays..

you fail to see because you come from a flawed premise, there's no tension

for example no one ever demanded from this notorious Party Of Regions to raise this issue in the parliament and they haven't done so of their own accord since 2007 when they gained the majority in the parliament, they only raise it now because elections glimmer on the horizon
it's a cheap political stunt

sorry i feel i start recycling myself, my opinion i have already made clear

Originally Posted by LXNDR

gRomoZeka please respond to this lowly request of mine

Originally Posted by LXNDR

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement

I believe I'm treated as a second grade citizen every time I have no choice about what language to use, filling forms (almost all of them are Ukrainian only) or going to movies (no choice whatsoever, to watch a movie dubbed to Russian I have to go to Russia, it's nonsense, considering at least 15 millions of native Russian speakers in Ukraine). When Russian-speaking schools are turned into Ukrainian forcefully in purely Russian-speaking regions against wishes of teachers, parents and kids - usually without any way to oppose this decision since Russian officially has no more rights in situations like this than any other foreign language (and it concerns me personally because it affects my family, particularly two different schools attended by my niece and cousin).

When a person I talked to two days ago says something like: "I hope Russians will leave Crimea soon, and real Ukrainians will move in", implying that people who leave there are not "real" to this state or have no right to be there despite the fact that they have been living there for generations and real Ukrainians did not. It was just a personal point of view, but the real problem is that this ridiculous differentiation is widespread and is made purely on language basis, since "haters" have a wonderful and unbeatable argument: "We live in Ukraine, the official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian, ergo Russian-speaking citizens have no right to complain, they are essentially outlaws".

I'm for bilingualism with both languages equally respected and supported by the state, with people always having a choice between two languages anywhere, in any setting. Right now the state looks another way in regards to Russian (i.e. "allows" people to use it when it can't be avoided or forbidden or controlled anyway), and insists it does us a great favor by doing so. I don't need this kind of unreliable favors, I want this right being supported officially and irrefutably by law. Though I doubt it ever happens.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I believe I'm treated as a second grade citizen every time I have no choice about what language to use, filling forms (almost all of them are Ukrainian only) or going to movies (no choice whatsoever, to watch a movie dubbed to Russian I have to go to Russia, it's nonsense, considering at least 15 millions of native Russian speakers in Ukraine).

don't you know Ukrainian? if so why?

why do i not feel this way? my mother tongue is Russian

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

When Russian-speaking schools are turned into Ukrainian forcefully in purely Russian-speaking regions against wishes of teachers, parents and kids - usually without any way to oppose this decision since Russian officially has no more rights in situations like this than any other foreign language (and it concerns me personally because it affects my family, particularly two different schools attended by my niece and cousin).

did you read the Constitution? did you vote for it?