Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by Hanna

I was recently in the Baltics and noticed no such mentality among the Russian speakers. In most cases (except the market in Riga) it was very hard to tell who was ethnically Russian vs Latvian. They are not very warm people, like Ukrainians for example - but both groups were about equally well or poorly behaved. There were crooks and rude people from either nationality, nice and friendly people from either. The Russians are somewhat the underdog though, the native Latvians are a little bit better off economically I think.

i'm not so much talking from human relations standpoint as from the standpoint of values, and it's the prevailing values which determine the orientation of the entire nation and national consciousness

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.

they restore historical justice, they have every right to since they have been violated

Originally Posted by Hanna

The Baltic states are essentially culturally and ethnically homogenous from an outside perspective, which is more than what can be said for any country in Northern Europe for example. In Belarus were only Belarussians and Russians, in the Ukraine I was not able to determine, but there certainly were no Africans or Arabs there at any rate. In Latvia too, were only white people, Europeans.

that is why it's only logical that there should be only one official language

I just watched on Эхо Москвы a talk with Riga's mayor Нил Ушаков, as you can tell by his surname he's Russian, by his personal name one can tell how much Russian he is, because Нил is an ancient forgotten Russian name
so maybe the rumors about discrimination are a bit exaggerated, or maybe only a certain stratum of Russian speaking population is discriminated against on whatever grounds

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

with such percentage, this Ukrainian law the MPs scrap over, would grant these Ukrainians the right to demand declaring Ukrainian a provincial language alongside English and French, don't you think it's ridiculous?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

that's the exact reason why Ukrainian has to remain the sole official language, i mentioned this reason earlier in this thread

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Stalin (and thus Russia) even went so far as to OUTLAW letters of the Ukrainian alphabet!

The official language of USSR was Ukrainian... Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Where there any letters taken out of Ukrainian by law? Not sure, but maybe the Ukrainian members of this forum would explain..

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The official language of USSR was Ukrainian

what do you mean? what about Russian?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

with such percentage, this Ukrainian law the MPs scrap over, would grant these Ukrainians the right to demand declaring Ukrainian a provincial language alongside English and French, don't you think it's ridiculous?

You see, I'm in no position to say that would be ridiculous or not. That's why there are provincial legislatures. A province is typically entitled to make a choice like that. I observed that if a movement like that is very strong and speaks to many citizens, the stakes in the provincial legislature would be pretty high and they would try to perhaps look for a compromise. The reason being is that the politicians are typically riding the waves to gain the votes. The present MP in that area would either vote for Ukrainian language and blame the failure on the other MPs, or face replacement in the other term. Those 'turnaround' forces are pretty strong and MPs would typically prefer to comply. There might be political tricks like following: "Oh, you want Ukrainian become another provincial language? Sure, why not! But, that would cost another $2,000,000 a year for the province and should have subsidized by the higher taxes. Are you ready for that?!!" And then there's going to be the whole fuss about that which would either settle down to the higher provincial taxes or to the majority rejecting that on that ground. But, not because: "Ahh!! Those Ukrainians came to our country and now want to be a dominant force and discriminate against Metis who are 7th number in the population and not the 10th!!" And so on. Do you see the difference?

So, honestly, I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian economy that well, but deep down I sense making Russian another official language would bring more money to the state than actually would be spent by the state to maintain the extra resources. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

that's the exact reason why Ukrainian has to remain the sole official language, i mentioned this reason earlier in this thread

You mentioned that, and I mentioned a peaceful solution that worked. Would you be able to elaborate why that solution would not work in Ukraine if implemented? An official language means that the citizen has a right to request a service from the state in either of the official language and the state is required by law to provide the service in that language.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

what do you mean? what about Russian?

The official language of the Ukrainian SSR was officially Ukrainian. As much as the official language of the Uzbek SSR was Uzbek. Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Russian was the only official language of the United Soviet Socialist Republics.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You see, I'm in no position to say that would be ridiculous or not. That's why there are provincial legislatures. A province is typically entitled to make a choice like that. I observed that if a movement like that is very strong and speaks to many citizens, the stakes in the provincial legislature would be pretty high and they would try to perhaps look for a compromise. The reason being is that the politicians are typically riding the waves to gain the votes. The present MP in that area would either vote for Ukrainian language and blame the failure on the other MPs, or face replacement in the other term. Those 'turnaround' forces are pretty strong and MPs would typically prefer to comply. There might be political tricks like following: "Oh, you want Ukrainian become another provincial language? Sure, why not! But, that would cost another $2,000,000 a year for the province and should have subsidized by the higher taxes. Are you ready for that?!!" And then there's going to be the whole fuss about that which would either settle down to the higher provincial taxes or to the majority rejecting that on that ground. But, not because: "Ahh!! Those Ukrainians came to our country and now want to be a dominant force and discriminate against Metis who are 7th number in the population and not the 10th!!" And so on. Do you see the difference?

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You mentioned that, and I mentioned a peaceful solution that worked. Would you be able to elaborate why that solution would not work in Ukraine if implemented? An official language means that the citizen has a right to request a service from the state in either of the official language and the state is required by law to provide the service in that language.

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, honestly, I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian economy that well, but deep down I sense making Russian another official language would bring more money to the state than actually would be spent by the state to maintain the extra resources. Does it make sense?

what extra resources do you mean?

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did.

Thank you but you are not able to speak for me or any other European. We can speak for ourselves. I am European but not Russian. I do not want American bases in Europe and I am certainly not scared of Russia, never have been, other than while watching American films where they are villified. My views are not at all uncommon. In the countries where these bases are located, in Western Europe, for the most part, local people do not like them. The Germans still feel uncomfortable about complaining due to their legacy, but soon enough the US will be asked to pack up and leave. This is what the Japanese tried in Okinawa, but the USA plain refused to leave, for two decades! It should be interesting times when we get to that situation in Europe. I'll spare you the embarrassment of posting pics of anti-USA graffiti that is common near the American bases.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

They do not take things from those counties - they guard the countries against the CONTINUED threat of the Russian's.

You can't be serious or have you been smoking something? What are you doing on this forum if you are so paranoid and suspicious about Russia? And PS - there should be no apostrophe in "Russians" in your sentence above.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Nobody trusts you - and for good reason!

Funny, that's exactly how lots of people around the world feel about the USA, so how's that for the pot calling the kettle black? This is a forum where (mainly) Russians are helping people who want to learn the Russian language. How about showing some respect to the hosts here? Or wait a second - let's just force them to become pseudo Americans in a cheap USA clone, that's more the spirit of people like you, isn't it!? I am totally apalled at the tone of your post!

I just watched on Эхо Москвы a talk with Riga's mayor Нил Ушаков, as you can tell by his surname he's Russian, by his personal name one can tell how much Russian he is,

Ok - but half of Riga's population is Russian (at least) so it is not very surprising. The mayor is democratically elected. And hopefully he was not choosen purely on the grounds of his family background. No doubt he had to do plenty of campaigning in absolutely accentless Latvian to get elected to the post.

The thing that was shocking is that there is another town in Latvia called Daugavpils that I visited. It is the second largest city in Latvia, close to the border with Belarus. Pretty much everyone there is a native Russian speaker. You hear no other language on the streets. Yet absolutely everything in the town was written in Latvian. It was practically comical. For example, in the supermarket, in restaurants etc, signs outside shops, streetnames etc. It was like a parallell universe. Imagine a village in England where everyone was speaking French.

The market reflected the reality of the situation, everyone trying to sell something had put up handwritten signs in Russian.

And I compare with Finland where I spent lots of time. Everything is double signed. As a Swedish speaker I have no trouble at all. If I lived there permanently I'd try to learn Finnish but like Latvian it is a very hard language with very few speakers

Originally Posted by LXNDR

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Unfortunately, I didn't get that. Would you be able to spell it out for a simple-minded crocodile?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I happen to spend some time in Ukraine once in a while and I noticed a growing concern that some of the people have trouble with that sole-Ukrainian thing. My impression (I might be wrong though) was that the assertion of all-Ukrainian was based on the promises of some of the former government officials for the tighter integration with the European Union and the subsequent inevitable economic prosperity and political freedoms. So, to make something of a slogan, that was: "Let's break free from Russian dominance and integrate with Europe on the equal terms!" More recently I observed a growing disillusionment in that idea. Rather, that seemed like a playing card in the East vs the West parts' of the country power games. (I'm probably oversimplifying that, but I trust you forgive me.) The economic and political tension between the two parts of Ukraine have seem to be growing with every year. And whilst one of the sides is looking for the support from Russia, the other side is looking for the support from the West (let's call it that way). Traditionally, those kind of tensions find their implementations in the separatist sentiments and, subsequently, movements. In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

The law is not the Ten Commandments. The law is for the people and not the people are for the law.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

what extra resources do you mean?

Money.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Unfortunately, I didn't get that. Would you be able to spell it out for a simple-minded crocodile?

you said it best below - Let's break free from Russian dominance

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I happen to spend some time in Ukraine once in a while and I noticed a growing concern that some of the people have trouble with that sole-Ukrainian thing. My impression (I might be wrong though) was that the assertion of all-Ukrainian was based on the promises of some of the former government officials for the tighter integration with the European Union and the subsequent inevitable economic prosperity and political freedoms. So, to make something of a slogan, that was: "Let's break free from Russian dominance and integrate with Europe on the equal terms!" More recently I observed a growing disillusionment in that idea. Rather, that seemed like a playing card in the East vs the West parts' of the country power games. (I'm probably oversimplifying that, but I trust you forgive me.) The economic and political tension between the two parts of Ukraine have seem to be growing with every year. And whilst one of the sides is looking for the support from Russia, the other side is looking for the support from the West (let's call it that way). Traditionally, those kind of tensions find their implementations in the separatist sentiments and, subsequently, movements. In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

not sure what observations you base your opinion on, but on the surface there's none of that now, there's a single common enemy now - Yanukovich, for Ukrainian nationalists because under his regime Ukrainian revival stopped and for Russian speaking regions and the whole population in general because he didn't keep his promises and the situation actually worsened

there's a joke that the only promise he did keep is he united the entire Ukraine (against himself)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The law is not the Ten Commandments. The law is for the people and not the people are for the law.

i already wrote that this law is unconstitutional and constitution IS 10 Commandments for orderly statehood

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Money.

i don't see how it can bring in more investments

i personally wouldn't be too happy about Russian investments, to attract investments from other countries favorable economic, financial and legal climate should be in place

For example Chinese importers are complaining about overrated import taxes which hurt their business
Китайцы жалуются на беспредел украинских таможенников

it's not really investments but still they pay to the treasury, and it illustrates the climate of lawlessness fest

i don't think they care what language is official in Ukraine, they know neither

Originally Posted by Crocodile

In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

To me it makes perfect sense, but of course, I am not Ukrainian!

Originally Posted by LXNDR

1. you said it best below - Let's break free from Russian dominance
2. there's a single common enemy now - Yanukovich

Well, and I guess Yushenko had not delivered on the economic prosperity because of the same common enemy - Yanukovich? Or maybe there already was economic prosperity and Yanukovich had just slaughtered the chicken which laid the golden eggs?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, and I guess Yushenko had not delivered on the economic prosperity because of the same common enemy - Yanukovich? Or maybe there already was economic prosperity and Yanukovich had just slaughtered the chicken which laid the golden eggs?

no, he only slaughtered civil liberties which began to bud during the 'oranges' and didn't deliver his socioeconomic promises even to his own electorate, for whom he wasn't enemy at the time

civil liberties was the only characteristic which positively distinguished Ukraine against other slavic post-soviet states during Yushenko

wanna hear what retirees who are literally ready to vote for anyone who hands them a pack of free buckwheat think of him?

it's in his hometown



another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xHECL9128A

I still don't think that the logic of the anti-Russian language commentators adds up here. According to your way of viewing thing, French should not be an equal language in Canada. The French Canadians should adapt to the majority language. France for the record has some gruesome acts on its conscience from its' days as a colonial power in Africa and East Asia.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I still don't think that the logic of the anti-Russian language commentators adds up here. According to your way of viewing thing, French should not be an equal language in Canada. The French Canadians should adapt to the majority language. France for the record has some gruesome acts on its conscience from its' days as a colonial power in Africa and East Asia.

their bilingualism is a historical fact, history is made by the people and if people decide there should only be one official language in Ukraine, so will it be, and they already did decide once, i'm not aware of a law which summons to re-evaluate this decision every some years

again, there're legal procedures which allow such re-evaluation, their legality isn't conditioned by anyone's personal view on the subject, and if legally the re-evaluation succeeds i will respect that, i will only note that in modern day Ukraine legality of many decisions, processes and political initiatives is questionable

bilingualism in Ukraine is by far not a topical issue, it's only topical for the Party Of Regions on the eve of elections, a bone for their disillusioned voters

if French committed those crimes against the people of Canada (not talking about indigenous population), maybe their language doesn't deserve to have the official status IN Canada

Originally Posted by LXNDR

bilingualism in Ukraine is by far not a topical issue, it's only topical for the Party Of Regions on the eve of elections, a bone for their disillusioned voters

You contradict yourself. The fact that this language issue resurfaces regularly and is important enough to the voters to be a proverbial carrot during elections proves that it is a "topical issue". After all you spent quite a lot of time arguing about it here, so it does matter.

I believe any arguments about "preserving" or "defending" Ukrainian language against Russian (as the main reason against Russian as a second official language) have no real weight. Those who speak Ukrainian will continue doing so either way, and with no forceful Ukrainisation Russian speakers won't feel the need to "defend" their right to speak Russian, and maybe will use Ukrainian more often. For now language wars cause tension, they certainly do not consolidate the nation and serve no real purpose except petty vengeance.

their bilingualism is a historical fact, history is made by the people

Erm... I lost you here. So their bilingualism is a historical fact, and bilingualism in Ukraine is not, even if it exists and formed historically over time? It looks like you are bending facts and arguments to fit your purpose.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did. They do not take things from those counties - they guard the countries against the CONTINUED threat of the Russian's.

Stalin (and thus Russia) even went so far as to OUTLAW letters of the Ukrainian alphabet!

It is difficult for me to understand how Russian's cannot understand the "hard feelings" these people have.

It is also difficult for me to understand WHY Russian's - being the smart and articulate people that they are - continually seem to need to be "led" - by despots like Putin.

Here in the USA - and all over Europe - we don't have a $1000 penalty for protest marches such as has been recently implemented by the "rubber stamp" Duma for CZAR Putin and his KGB cronies.

Also here and in Europe - the "state" does not "own" the media like they do in Russia - or should I say "Gazpromia". Yes - you might say America or Europe is "owned" by corporations - but it is not just one single corporation like it is in Russia. When any corporation would challenge Putin and Gazprom - well - they just change the laws (think LukOil here) and the "state" simply steals the assets of the "lawbreaker".

Nobody trusts you - and for good reason! So why would they trust their "indigenous Russian speakers" that were installed by the Soviet invader?

I will "add" here - that I know allot about the "so-called" Yugoslavia - I was stationed in northern Greece (Macedonia) in that late 70's - in a place where they called it then the "buffer zone".

Yugoslavia was a "special case". This was only a "country" because of the "iron hand" of Tito. This place - the "Balkan" - it was the crossroads of East vs. West - Slav vs. Muslim - and even orthodox vs. catholic vs. Islam. This place has been the foment of war in Europe. The only thing that made that collection of Croatia Serbia, and the rest WAS the AUTHORITARIAN regime of Tito. As soon as he died - the inevitable troubles began.

Yet the Euro's did nothing about it - nor did the Russian's - all the while the body's of the innocents were piling up.

I was very much against the US forces involvement by Madeline "NotSoBright" and the "BillKlingon" administration in that delima - I knew it to be a European problem and thought that it should be a European "fix". But the Euro's are just like a "neutered dog" and something had to be done. The USA did it!

Crap on you Russian's for what you did (or didn't do) there! You came "riding in" at the last minute after all was over pretending to "save your Slavic brother".

Where were you Russian's or the Euro's in the BEGINNING of that conflict of a nation that was essentially under your care?

Where were you? Nowhere to be found - that is "where you were".

Typical Russian.

I always like that "old Soviet saying" - that "history is never set".

Yup - you Putin robots certainly fit the mold - and you are to be feared - because you are all intelligent, talented, and seem to be brainwashed like a herd of korova.

Don't any of you "modern" Russian's remember Viktor Tsoy? Perhaps you should listen to his songs again. I would point out "печаль".

I want to say here - that I am married to a Ukrainian woman for 12 years. I have "inherited" her children and have brought them here to America - I have treated them all well. I have taken the "Russian view" in politics on many occasions - but now I have grave doubts.

Why? Because of what I see happening in Russia now - the absorption of the media by the state run Gazprom. The people are "fed" a single lunch everyday - they have no informed choices - and if they demand t - they are fined much more than they can pay.

That is what I see - and being the old "cold warrior" that I am I am glad we have many missiles pointed towards Russia and have changed my mind again to believe that Russia is truly the enemy of freedom - because their people are Korova that subjugate themselves to an authoritarian regime that will be to the detriment on mankind.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

I will "add" here - that I know allot about the "so-called" Yugoslavia - I was stationed in northern Greece (Macedonia) in that late 70's - in a place where they called it then the "buffer zone".

Yugoslavia was a "special case". This was only a "country" because of the "iron hand" of Tito. This place - the "Balkan" - it was the crossroads of East vs. West - Slav vs. Muslim - and even orthodox vs. catholic vs. Islam. This place has been the foment of war in Europe. The only thing that made that collection of Croatia Serbia, and the rest WAS the AUTHORITARIAN regime of Tito. As soon as he died - the inevitable troubles began.

[...]

Typical Russian.

I always like that "old Soviet saying" - that "history is never set".

Yup - you Putin robots certainly fit the mold - and you are to be feared - because you are all intelligent, talented, and seem to be brainwashed like a herd of korova.

Don't any of you "modern" Russian's remember Viktor Tsoy? Perhaps you should listen to his songs again. I would point out "печаль".

I want to say here - that I am married to a Ukrainian woman for 12 years. I have "inherited" her children and have brought them here to America - I have treated them all well. I have taken the "Russian view" in politics on many occasions - but now I have grave doubts.

Why? Because of what I see happening in Russia now - the absorption of the media by the state run Gazprom. The people are "fed" a single lunch everyday - they have no informed choices - and if they demand t - they are fined much more than they can pay.

That is what I see - and being the old "cold warrior" that I am I am glad we have many missiles pointed towards Russia and have changed my mind again to believe that Russia is truly the enemy of freedom - because their people are Korova that subjugate themselves to an authoritarian regime that will be to the detriment on mankind.

Ok, we get it. You don't like Russians.
Is there any valid point in this stream of consciousness? Like, on topic?

I find that rather hard to believe - based on the people of pre baltica that I know here say - where do you get your statistics from?

Most - if not all - of them are firmly "anti-russian" language - even if they know how to speak it.

Also - nearly all of them I know (maybe 5 or 6) say that there was NO "indigenous" Russian speakers until the "occupation".

So - do you DENY that Russia FORCIBLY OCCUPIED pre balitica?

I am just wondering about your own perception of "history" here.

You are right - I am wrong - and I stand corrected.

I got a little emotional here - I have had a tough weekend - I had to bury my dog that has just died

I do NOT "hate" Russian's - I guess I m just a little disappointing in their actions - still I know I am not GOD - I do not attempt to judge anyone - I am just suspicious.

"On Topic" -

My wife IS an "ethnic Russian speaking" Ukrainian. She is from Zaporiska oblast - her family is from the Donbass region. They have all spoken Russian there "since there was dirt".

My wife and her family are "looked down on" by their western Ukrainian counterparts who speak "pure" Ukrainian language.

My wife is from the kholkhoz - where there was a different life. I have myself been there. They all speak Russian there - though a "mix" - they say"nye" instead of "nyet". It is a small distinction and else they speak Russki Yazike.. I have met these people and there is nothing wrong with them - they are strong - and they are not an enemy.

However - that is not like it is for most of pre-baltica - as far as I know.

These people had the "russki yazike" imposed upon them - I don't think there were many "Russian speakers" there before the imposition of the Soviet state.

This "debate" in Ukraine about language - it is just a mask to hide much deeper problems - particularly problems with corruption.

I have had problems with language in Ukraine - I brought my wife and her two children over here in 1999 - and had to have all the papers translated first from Russian to Ukrainian - and then from Ukrainian to English.

So after all of that we had to go through the American embassy in Warsaw to get everything done.

At that time - there was very little available to learn the Russian language - much less Ukrainian or Polish. So I had the PROMT software that I bought.

So - anyway - I thought I was doing a "good thing" to learn some Russian before I went to Warsaw but I had a BIG SURPRISE!

When I first met the people at the hotel - and spoke to them in Russian - one woman replied to me....

"Why do you speak Russian? You can speak anything you want here - English, Italian, or Polish, but DON'T SPEAK RUSSIAN HERE!".

So there you go - this is a real experience that I think is "on-topic".

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

For now language wars cause tension

please be honest, there's no such animal as language wars in the daily routine of Ukraine, they only reappear every elections round and are confined by the walls of the Parliament and maybe some web forums

when people aren't comfortable with something they protest, nothing prevents Russian speaking population of Ukraine from starting grassroots campaign for Russian language just like they did in Latvia, the constitution and legislation which guarantee the right of the people to initiate a referendum is there

i affirmed that quite a few times and i'll do it one last time, i'm not against the official status of Russian as long as it's decided upon by the lawful means, again Latvia is a perfect example, on the other hand i have my personal opinion and i don't think anyone needs to or should try to dissuade me from it

gRomoZeka please respond to this lowly request of mine

Originally Posted by LXNDR

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement