Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMjISG76ck

The fight is about the proposal to recognize Russian as regional language in 13 out of 27 regions of Ukraine, with more than 10% of native Russian speakers.

the so called Law About Languages which is being proposed doesn't limit the number of regions where 'a regional' language can be established alongside the official Ukrainian, the population speaking a certain language must amount to at least 10% of the entire population of the administrative unit in order for this language to have the right to receive 'regional' status

in reality almost in every administrative unit Russian speaking population easily makes up 10% meaning that through this law Russian language will have all the chances to eventually become the second official language alongside Ukrainian

now legally speaking this law is anticonstitutional because its multiple clauses allow other language(s) becoming official for governmental bodies on the regional level
Clause 10 of the constitution of Ukraine declares Ukrainian as the official language of the state

hence the only way to lawfully make Russian or any other language official is by constitutional reform which then has to be validated on a state referendum
constitutional reform is a long process and it has to be voted for by 2/3 of the MPs which i don't think is feasible


politically speaking, Ukraine is on its way to the parliamentary elections scheduled for autumn, so various political forces try to gain dividends by speculating on the issue of language, because being politically insolvent they realistically do not have anything else to offer to the citizens or base their campaigns on

Russian parliament is so boring compared to Ukrainian one...
Maybe it's because "Edinaya Rossiya" has Nikolai "Beast from the East" Valuev on its side...

but Ukrainian will only become more vicious if Klitchko is elected with his party

Well it's clear that a large proportion of Ukrainians prefer to speak Russian over Ukrainian. What is the problem with having two official languages and double signs? Who is against that, and why?

That way everybody can speak the language they prefer. If the Russian speakers feel discriminated against, they will become disloyal to the Ukrainian state and perhaps identify more with Russia/Russians.

Anyway, that kind of behaviour in the parliament is disgraceful and it is not good for Ukraine's image. I don't think it's the first time it happened either.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well it's clear that a large proportion of Ukrainians prefer to speak Russian over Ukrainian. What is the problem with having two official languages and double signs? Who is against that, and why?

That way everybody can speak the language they prefer. If the Russian speakers feel discriminated against, they will become disloyal to the Ukrainian state and perhaps identify more with Russia/Russians.

Anyway, that kind of behaviour in the parliament is disgraceful and it is not good for Ukraine's image. I don't think it's the first time it happened either.

because if this is done, Ukrainian language will eventually die out, this is not the way languages are revived, Belorussian language is on it's last legs for the same reason
that's the problem, no one is discriminated against on the language basis, and Ukrainian nationals even though they may speak Russian, normally do not support the idea of another official language
and even if anyone was discriminated against there's judicial system to restore one's rights which are guaranteed by the constitution
i'm not aware that there have been any court cases dealing with language discrimination

Ukrainian is the titular nation in Ukraine just like the Swedes in Sweden therefore its language has to remain the only official language in the country. And with the right domestic policy it's only a matter of time that Ukrainian becomes widely spoken

But if another language was to be added, the proper procedure I outlined above, what this anti-ukrainian Party Of Regions is doing by proposing this law is not only unlawful, it's borderline treason

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well it's clear that a large proportion of Ukrainians prefer to speak Russian over Ukrainian. What is the problem with having two official languages and double signs? Who is against that, and why?

Against that are those who are pro-Europe.

The main argument of the opponents is similar to that in Latvia, I think. They fear that Russian would dominate over national language, because it's "bigger". So they prefer to pretend (on official level) that Russian doesn't exist in the country and consider the problem of preserving Ukrainian solved (angry native Russian speakers don't matter)

One third of Ukrainian citizens have Russian as their mother tongue. Isn't it unfair not to recognize their native language officially (at least on regional level, as it's proposed)?

Originally Posted by xdns

One third of Ukrainian citizens have Russian as their mother tongue. Isn't it unfair not to recognize their native language officially (at least on regional level, as it's proposed)?

+1
Those who are against Russian language usually state that "it does not matter" since millions of Ukrainians who speak Russian as their first language "are not forbidden to use it in private settings". Which is not a consolation, because it's quite clear that the only reason it's not forbidden yet is that such a ban is impossible to implement at the time. The government is making baby steps in this direction, though, first forbidding airing Russian songs on radio in certain regions, then forbidding demonstrating foreign films dubbed in Russian in theaters, despite many people in Russian speaking regions being openly against it (in my native city 75% of movie theaters broke because of that), and generally excluding Russian from wherever possible.

Also the statistics about ratio between Russian and Ukrainian speaking citizens is not fully objective, since questionnaires usually look like "What's your native language?" instead of "What language do you speak at home?" (or similar question). Many respondents see it as a question about their ethnicity, so ethnic Ukrainians usually answer "Ukrainian" regardless of their actual native/primary language.

it's only fair if their language rights are systematically are discriminated against and the judicial system has been unable to curtail this phenomenon, which is not the case

the constitution of Ukraine is fait accompli, you can call it unfair, so was the decision of Ukrainian citizens including Russian speaking ones

for many proponents of the second language it's simply an excuse to not learn and know Ukrainian

moreover this law opens the whole can of worms for social stability in the country and is dangerous for its very integrity

here's a very sane article on the topic of Russian in former soviet republics

Originally Posted by LXNDR

here's a very sane article on the topic of Russian in former soviet republics

This article is Russophobic. It portrays Russians in a very negative light in just about every respect. In the end the author calls Russian "the enemy language". I don't see how it could be "very sane article"

every nation which comes to another land and start dictating rules will be perceived as threat and phobia is nothing else than fear, fear of threat in this case, so russophobia is just a manifestation of self-preservation instinct of a nation which feels threatened by Russia

and I just agree that Russian state and Russian citizens insofar as they agree with their government policies pose threat to neighboring countries, or at least unfriendly towards them, especially if those countries are oriented towards European values, which are by and large incongruent with the values Russian state currently adheres to

its aggressiveness Russian state has demonstrated in a recent armed conflict with Georgia

Originally Posted by LXNDR

every nation which comes to another land and start dictating rules will be perceived as threat and phobia is nothing else than fear, fear of threat in this case, so russophobia is just a manifestation of self-preservation instinct of a nation which feels threatened by Russia

and I just agree that Russian state and Russian citizens insofar as they agree with their government policies pose threat to neighboring countries, or at least unfriendly towards them, especially if those countries are oriented towards European values, which are by and large incongruent with the values Russian state currently adheres to

its aggressiveness Russian state has demonstrated in a recent armed conflict with Georgia

I can certainly agree with that.

Of course MANY Ukrainian's speak Russian language "ethnically" - yet some speak such because they were FORCED to do such by the Soviet boot on their necks.

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

Of course the contemporary Russian citizen can no more be held accountable for the sins of the Soviet than the contemporary German citizen for the sins of the Nazi - but many people do not understand that.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik".

Being forced to learn a language is not the worst thing possible - after all we were all "forced" to learn all kinds of languages at school without an opportunity to refuse. In the USSR we were "forced" to learn Ukrainian which I do not regret at all even if I do not feel any particular fondness for it.

At least Poles were not forced to accept it as their native language and to use it instead of Polish in courts, movie theaters, etc.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

I think this is true for some people, maybe the majority. But I have personally met many Eastern Europeans who don't feel this way at all. A Polish person not so long ago, a Bulgarian guy who was running a very successful IT business in London and a German technician that I knew through work. A girl from Lithuania who is in the same book club as me and countless CVs where Eastern Europeans claim to speak fluent Russian.
All of them practically brag about their skills in Russian as a second language.

Many people in France blatantly despise English, some in Germany too. They feel their own language is quite sufficient and do not want to feel like fools expressing themselves in English just because of the current dominance of the USA or whatever they see as the explanation.

Those of us who speak smaller European languages as our mother tongues (like me) appreciate that knowing English makes all of the internet and endless more literature and culture available. I'd say that Russian would fill a similar type of role for some people even if it is a smaller language than English, it is a "world" language. For Polish, Czech etc people it is considerably easier to learn Russian than English, that's got to count for something. So I wouldn't take their complaints too seriously - it will be forgotten with time. Everyone has to learn English now, and if you don't, certain careers are not available. I don't see the big difference.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Of course MANY Ukrainian's speak Russian language "ethnically" - yet some speak such because they were FORCED to do such by the Soviet boot on their necks.

The same can be said for many of the "Warsaw pact" nations that were FORCED to study the "Ruski Yazik". They HATE Russian language - and possibly Russian people as well - because of the 40 years of oppression and repression that their country endured at the hands of the Soviet.

Of course the contemporary Russian citizen can no more be held accountable for the sins of the Soviet than the contemporary German citizen for the sins of the Nazi - but many people do not understand that.

LOL. If you give independence to Moscow oblast and put regional nationalists in charge, they also will claim that Moscow oblast was suppressed by Moscow for thousands of years, so that all who came from Moscow and their descendants are "occupiers" and their rights should be restricted.

I think the language talks are nothing but the pure political games. What does it mean 'to re-establish itself' or 'save the language' in that context? If you take the history a little further than 300 or so years, I'm pretty sure you'll find that each dialect of Ukrainian initially belonged to a group of people which physically prevailed another group. So, come to think of it, any language might actually be 'a language of an occupant' for the most people in the world. But after two generations the 'occupied' people would know the language of the 'occupant' and dump their native language. So, those who fight for the so-called 'their Ukrainian' with heat, would actually fight for the language of the 'occupant' of their ancestors. Their ancestors fought and died and the Ukrainian occupants killed them and wiped out their original language. Is that really something worth to hold onto despite the convenience?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Is that really something worth to hold onto despite the convenience?

yes it is, for the sake of cultural diversity

but what kind of convenience you mean i don't understand

there's large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and Chinese as well, do you think their languages should receive the same status as English and French?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

yes it is, for the sake of cultural diversity

but what kind of convenience you mean i don't understand

there's large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and Chinese as well, do you think their languages should receive the same status as English and French?

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

But, it's good that you mentioned French as a second official language in Canada. So, the francophones are a minority, but since it's very widely spoken language in Canada, it is official. That is a convenience as well as the political unity. The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

That being said, there are a number of organizations which would employ the Ukrainian origin. For example, https://www.ukrainiancu.com/UCU/ which offices are all over Canada would only accept members of the Ukrainian origin. E.g. I cannot become a member and get a credit from that union. Ukrainians are very proud of their origin I guess..