Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Though I doubt it ever happens.

Now you got me intrigued. Why not?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

don't you know Ukrainian? if so why?

I'm essentially fluent in Ukrainian, but it's not my native language and never will be. At the same time I'm a citizen of Ukraine for as long as it exists, and I feel that I should have a right to use the language that is "native" to me and to this part of the country freely and officially. Especially since it's just legislation of something that already exists, and will require minimum effort from the state.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

why do i not feel this way? my mother tongue is Russian

How could I know? Some people are ambivalent about this, and others are quite passionate (pro or contra). It depends on you personal views, your heritage, your family traditions and place of your residence.
You might feel ok with the current situation, but I'm bothered by it, and have been for a long time.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

did you read the Constitution? did you vote for it?

Nope. It was adopted and ratified by the Parliament in 1996 (with only 15 votes over minimum required). There was no referendum, afaik. How was I supposed to vote for it? =/

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

When Russian-speaking schools are turned into Ukrainian forcefully in purely Russian-speaking regions against wishes of teachers, parents and kids - usually without any way to oppose this decision since Russian officially has no more rights in situations like this than any other foreign language (and it concerns me personally because it affects my family, particularly two different schools attended by my niece and cousin).

If you lived in the European Union and this happened, you could complain all the way to the European Court in Brussels. Media would be writing stories about it, everybody would be on the side of your family. This kind of thing is absolutely unthinkable in Western Europe at least. A minority population could never be discriminated against in this way. Imagine if they did that in a school in the Catalunya, in Wales, in the Swedish speaking parts of Finland..... It would simply never happen.

I know they do it in the Baltic states, but it is a matter of time before public opinion catches on to it and they have to quit it. The situation with Russians in the Baltics is covered quite a bit in the Scandinavian press and nobody defends the behaviour of the Balts. I know the "big" world does not care what Scandinavia thinks, but as soon as it gets picked up in the German press (which is feasible) or a Baltic Russian sues the state in Brussels, they will get forced to change...

I don't know what would make things change in Ukraine, but I thought Yanukovich was supposedly more oriented towards Russia - doesn't this have a bearing on the language question too?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.

they restore historical justice, they have every right to since they have been violated

You can't be serious about this! This is very primitive justice!

All countries in Europe have done terrible things to their neighbours at one time or another. If this sort of "an-eye-for-an-eye" retribution onto the next generation (sounds like something from the Old Testament..) was acceptable, then we might as well nuke each other right away, or start a civil war across the continent!

Recent history has shown that forgiving, forgetting and working together with your neighbouring countries is the way to retain peace and prosper.

Gosh, even in South Africa they can manage to leave the past behind for goodness sake!

It seems to me that people here are blackpainting Russians and the USSR far more than what can be justified, and that you are saying there is some kind of "special dispensation" to discriminate against Russians and the Russian language because of these highly debatable accusations against the USSR, from many, many decades ago.

Most people who have any memory of the Stalin era when all this *might* have taken place, depending on your viewpoint... are very old or dead! This attitude to me is really creepy - it makes me draw parallels with historical events.

Originally Posted by Anixx

On Russians in the Baltics:
They not only cannot participate in elections, but also cannot occupy various positions such as lawers, firefighters or pharmacists.

It should be noted that the only way to get the citizenship for them is to pass the exams which not only include the language test, but also require them to explain the official interpretation of history, that is to call their parents "occupiers" and to count the Latvian Waffen SS as heroes. Not all people are ready to do so.

All this sounds practically like fascism to me. It sounds really primitive. Brussels needs to look at this and punish Estonia and Latvia if they don't quit this. It's outrageous. Citizenship should have nothing to do with what opinions you hold about certain historical events, or whether you speak the minority or majority languge. And at 40% the Russians are hardly a small minority in Latvia. Without them, the country would no doubt stop functioning.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Now you got me intrigued. Why not?

Maybe "ever" was too strong of a word, but I have my doubts. )
Ukrainian politics is extremely divided, corrupted and slow-working. Even reforms that are potentially supported by 90% of population could be awaited for decades. Referendum results are easily ignored (that's already happened in 2000).

So amendments on such a controversial issue as the second official language will require a lot of work and a certain stubbornness, and I don't see anyone in our government willing to put an effort. The Party of Regions (which is relatively pro-Russian) promised something like it, but their position is precarious, and I doubt they'll take the risk. And those who'll come after them might well be from another political "camp". And so it goes...
All in all, it is something our politicians would like to postpone for as long as possible, if it suits their interests.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I thought Yanukovich was supposedly more oriented towards Russia - doesn't this have a bearing on the language question too?

Well, I can see where LXNR is coming from on that matter. AFAIR, Yanukovich addressed Crimean audience in Russian before him being elected the President several years ago. The language issue is still there. Implying, Yanukovich cares about the people and the state as little as the previous President. So, every time he wants to appeal to the Russian-speaking part of the country, he would employ the 'language issue', but otherwise he's just as ignorant. Based on that, LXNR thinks the 'language issue' is not real. Something like that.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I'm essentially fluent in Ukrainian, but it's not my native language and never will be. At the same time I'm a citizen of Ukraine for as long as it exists, and I feel that I should have a right to use the language that is "native" to me and to this part of the country freely and officially. Especially since it's just legislation of something that already exists, and will require minimum effort from the state.

excuse me, but if this is your reasoning i think your desire of having filling forms and subtitles in Russian is just a whim

i don't care whether they're in English, because i can understand it, let alone Ukrainian

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

How could I know? Some people are ambivalent about this, and others are quite passionate (pro or contra). It depends on you personal views, your heritage, your family traditions and place of your residence.
You might feel ok with the current situation, but I'm bothered by it, and have been for a long time.

believe me if i felt discriminated against i would be vocal about it, but i'm not vocal because there's nothing to be vocal about as far as language is concerned

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Nope. It was adopted and ratified by the Parliament in 1996 (with only 15 votes over minimum required). There was no referendum, afaik. How was I supposed to vote for it? =/

you're right i retract my question, and i'm really surprised it wasn't ratified on a referendum, i consider it amiss

Originally Posted by Hanna

If you lived in the European Union and this happened, you could complain all the way to the European Court in Brussels. Media would be writing stories about it, everybody would be on the side of your family. This kind of thing is absolutely unthinkable in Western Europe at least.

To appeal to the European court of human rights in Brussels there is no need for a country to be member of EU. Even Russian citizens can do so. I am quite sure that there were already numerous appeals to that court about language situation in the Baltics and Ukraine. All these appeals possibly were turned down or not accepted for consideration. Anyway what one can expect from a court that endorsed the Estonian sentence for a 80-years old partisan Vasiliy Kononov for participation in anti-Nazi fight? He was found guilty for killing pro-Nazi Schutzmannschaft members (local Nazi sympathizers who were given weapons by German authorities) during WWII.

Originally Posted by Hanna

All this sounds practically like fascism to me. It sounds really primitive. Brussels needs to look at this and punish Estonia and Latvia if they don't quit this. It's outrageous. Citizenship should have nothing to do with what opinions you hold about certain historical events, or whether you speak the minority or majority languge. And at 40% the Russians are hardly a small minority in Latvia. Without them, the country would no doubt stop functioning.

It should be noted that even getting the citizenship does not always give you all rights. For example, to get elected to the parliament, at least until 2002 in Latvia a person had to know the language at the highest, 3rd grade, i.e. native level. One striking story happened with ethnic Russian candidate Podkolzina: despite she had a valid language certificate about knowledge of the language at 3rd grade, a language inspector visited her at work and examined her at the workplace. After that he concluded that she does not satisfy the 3rd level and she was banned from the elections.

I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?
Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?
Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?

Language usage depends on the region of Ukraine. In the region, where I live, Ukrainian is used only in some official papers and some of the most official ceremonies. In Kiev AFAIK situation when each one speaks language of his choice is quite normal even for the conversation of strangers. Usually there are no problems in understanding each other. Often it leads to mixing languages and words.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

excuse me, but if this is your reasoning i think your desire of having filling forms and subtitles in Russian is just a whim

I think to turn a blind eye on what gRomoZeka is saying is not that wise. If tomorrow she or her children would vote for a separatist party or join some secessionist movements, don't start blaming Russia for its aggressive foreign politics. Blame the ignorance.

The "5th Channel" launched an advertising campaign against official recognition of Russian language in Ukraine:

Я хочу розмовляти українською мовою! - YouTube
Єдина державна мова - українська! - YouTube
Скажи "НІ" казнокрадам і українофобам! - YouTube
Я не хочу жити в резервації! - YouTube

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?

Regardless of where an informal conversation with a stranger happens (between locals) the language is generally depends on the language used in this region, and most regions are pretty homogeneous in this regard (with slight deviation between cities and country areas). In other words there's no social rule that in a department shop you should speak one language, and at a beauty salon another - it's usually one language all the way.

In areas where both languages are widespread (like Kiev) strangers on the street can swap to one language or the other, but quite often they speak both - i.e. each one uses his/her own language of preference. It does not cause any difficulties in understanding, since an absolute majority of Ukrainians are bilingual (at least at comprehension level).

In official or semi-official situations, especially if the target audience is all-Ukrainian (political speeches or announcements, for example), Ukrainian is used almost exclusively, since it's required by law. It's also required of most state office clerks, who communicate with public. But if the said event is local (in a Russian speaking region) most people use Russian since there's no one to tell them otherwise.

Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?

It's an interesting question, I think it's possible to talk with different groups of friends in different languages, but said friends should probably have drastically different backgrounds...
Personally I do not have anyone to speak to in Ukrainian here. I grew up in a very homogeneous region (I was 11 when I've fleetingly seen a genuine Ukrainian-speaking person for the first time in real life (not on TV)). later I moved to another region, but it's also mostly Russian speaking, or rather cities are almost exclusively Russian-speaking and villagers and people from small towns speak "surgik" (a mix of both languages).
But I had a friend at Uni, who spoke Russian (as everyone else), and only after her Dad visited, I realized that they spoke "surgik" only at home, because she switched between two seamlessly. It was cool (even if "surgik" is often considered a "hillbilly" dialect). In other words, most people adapt to general language setting, if they move somewhere with different language preferences, so there's no Babel confusion.


Interesting responses to the question about which language you speak.
Based on what you are saying, it seems like there is a not-insignificant risk that parts of Ukraine become separatist and apply for membership in the Russian Federation.... Or simply that the Russian speaking part becomes its own country, like Pridnestrovie (which I visited!!) Pridnestrovie is small enough that it can be ignored. But if something like that were to happen in the Ukraine it would be a totally different story.

• Can I ask - why are these Russian speaking areas part of the Ukraine in the first place? Is there some "USSR related" reason......?
• Otherwise, since Russia is right next to the Ukraine, why aren't these regions simply part of Russia?
• Is there an "ethnic" difference between Ukrainians and Russians, or is it simply a cultural/linguistic thing...
• Are the Russian speaking Ukrainians "real" Ukrainians?

Would anyone prefer the option of being part of Russia, or do you think it's preferable to solve the problem in a Ukrainian context..?

Does this question alienate you as citizens of the Ukraine or do you feel loyal to the Ukraine regardless?

Originally Posted by Hanna

since Russia is right next to the Ukraine, why aren't these regions simply part of Russia?

LOL. When you say something like that, the etiquette requires you to add: "Всем чмоки."

http://lurkmore.to/%D0%A7%D0%BC%D0%B...B0%D1%82%D0%B5

Let the epic battle begin!

Not PC map of Ukraine from the link above:

why are these Russian speaking areas part of the Ukraine in the first place? Is there some "USSR related" reason......?

That was a decision of the Soviet leaders, mainly Stalin and Khrushchev.

Is there an "ethnic" difference between Ukrainians and Russians, or is it simply a cultural/linguistic thing...

No, only selfdetermination, which is promoted by the state. Many "Russians" have become "Ukrainians" since the independence.

Not PC map of Ukraine from the link above:

Haha, I get the idea... Interesting, I knew none of that...

Some of the things that Gromozeka and it-ogo said, reminded me of the situation in Belgium.
I spent some time there for work, when there was a big crisis there, due to the language issue.
They could not even form a government. I was in Brussels, which is a "mixed" city, half the population is Dutch speaking and the other half is French speaking. Most of the Dutch speakers can speak French but don't necessarily want to. Some of the French speakers never learn Dutch very well, and the same is true for their English skills.

People are very talented in knowing which language to speak with whom. I was walking around town with a Belgian collegue and sometimes he started talking French with people, sometimes Dutch. He said "I can usually guess". Things were very complicated in the office too - who speaks what language, and when....

They don't HATE eachother but the main complaint is that the French speakers don't bother learning Dutch (and occassionally the other way around). They simply get on with life and most have mainly friends from one lanuage groups, but also a few friends from the other group. Some Dutch parents put their children in French speaking schools and vice versa just to make sure the child is bilingual. They also have schools that use both languages for instruction.

The reason Belgium is a separate country is because the Belgians usually are Catholic whereas the Netherlands and the part of France bordering Belgium are protestant. But nowadays people care more about language than religion....

The Belgium situation is different because French and Dutch belong to different language families, whereas Russian and Ukrainian are closely related.

Originally Posted by xdns

The Belgium situation is different because French and Dutch belong to different language families, whereas Russian and Ukrainian are closely related.

Mmm.. I found the situation described by Hanna to be really similar to what is going on in Ukraine. Except that in Ukraine there is (probably!) a little more animosity between two groups (or more radical representatives of two groups) due to the fact that it's not only language issue, but the whole baggage of historical and continuing political controversies.

Even the fact that Belgium is called "Belgium" (and not Francland or Dutchmania) makes at an equal field while in Ukraine the name of the state is often used as an argument in language discussions.