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Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    If you lived in the European Union and this happened, you could complain all the way to the European Court in Brussels. Media would be writing stories about it, everybody would be on the side of your family. This kind of thing is absolutely unthinkable in Western Europe at least.
    To appeal to the European court of human rights in Brussels there is no need for a country to be member of EU. Even Russian citizens can do so. I am quite sure that there were already numerous appeals to that court about language situation in the Baltics and Ukraine. All these appeals possibly were turned down or not accepted for consideration. Anyway what one can expect from a court that endorsed the Estonian sentence for a 80-years old partisan Vasiliy Kononov for participation in anti-Nazi fight? He was found guilty for killing pro-Nazi Schutzmannschaft members (local Nazi sympathizers who were given weapons by German authorities) during WWII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    All this sounds practically like fascism to me. It sounds really primitive. Brussels needs to look at this and punish Estonia and Latvia if they don't quit this. It's outrageous. Citizenship should have nothing to do with what opinions you hold about certain historical events, or whether you speak the minority or majority languge. And at 40% the Russians are hardly a small minority in Latvia. Without them, the country would no doubt stop functioning.
    It should be noted that even getting the citizenship does not always give you all rights. For example, to get elected to the parliament, at least until 2002 in Latvia a person had to know the language at the highest, 3rd grade, i.e. native level. One striking story happened with ethnic Russian candidate Podkolzina: despite she had a valid language certificate about knowledge of the language at 3rd grade, a language inspector visited her at work and examined her at the workplace. After that he concluded that she does not satisfy the 3rd level and she was banned from the elections.

  3. #3
    Hanna
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    I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
    With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?
    Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
    What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
    With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?
    Regardless of where an informal conversation with a stranger happens (between locals) the language is generally depends on the language used in this region, and most regions are pretty homogeneous in this regard (with slight deviation between cities and country areas). In other words there's no social rule that in a department shop you should speak one language, and at a beauty salon another - it's usually one language all the way.

    In areas where both languages are widespread (like Kiev) strangers on the street can swap to one language or the other, but quite often they speak both - i.e. each one uses his/her own language of preference. It does not cause any difficulties in understanding, since an absolute majority of Ukrainians are bilingual (at least at comprehension level).

    In official or semi-official situations, especially if the target audience is all-Ukrainian (political speeches or announcements, for example), Ukrainian is used almost exclusively, since it's required by law. It's also required of most state office clerks, who communicate with public. But if the said event is local (in a Russian speaking region) most people use Russian since there's no one to tell them otherwise.
    Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
    What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?
    It's an interesting question, I think it's possible to talk with different groups of friends in different languages, but said friends should probably have drastically different backgrounds...
    Personally I do not have anyone to speak to in Ukrainian here. I grew up in a very homogeneous region (I was 11 when I've fleetingly seen a genuine Ukrainian-speaking person for the first time in real life (not on TV)). later I moved to another region, but it's also mostly Russian speaking, or rather cities are almost exclusively Russian-speaking and villagers and people from small towns speak "surgik" (a mix of both languages).
    But I had a friend at Uni, who spoke Russian (as everyone else), and only after her Dad visited, I realized that they spoke "surgik" only at home, because she switched between two seamlessly. It was cool (even if "surgik" is often considered a "hillbilly" dialect). In other words, most people adapt to general language setting, if they move somewhere with different language preferences, so there's no Babel confusion.
    

  5. #5
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka View Post
    But I had a friend at Uni, who spoke Russian (as everyone else), and only after her Dad visited, I realized that they spoke "surgik" only at home, because she switched between two seamlessly. It was cool (even if "surgik" is often considered a "hillbilly" dialect). In other words, most people adapt to general language setting, if they move somewhere with different language preferences, so there's no Babel confusion.
    Interesting that she was able to switch between Surgik and Russian. If you take people in the UK who speak in an accent, they cannot just switch it off and speak Queen's English - only if they had training in speaking "accentless". I knew a few "posh" people from Southern Sweden who speak in the (terrible!!) accent from there with their local friends and standard Swedish with others. But normal local people there cannot do it, they are stuck with their accent.....

    In Belarus, as I mentioned, I noticed that some people were speaking in accent. They pronounced the leter "г" as "h", for example. It's kind of funny that Belarus has never been a separate country before, yet it does not have the same problems with language that Ukraine has. Belarus instead, has lots of national campaigns going on, to make people feel "Belarussian" even if they originally are from somewhere else in the ex USSR or imperial Russia. They have some signs and official paperwork in Belarussian, but I did not hear ANYONE actually speak Belarussian, and I kept asking people about it. They all said "Oh, I wish I knew it, but I don't know it very well..." and things like that.

    This is an example of from the Belarus pro-nationalism campaign:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Interesting that she was able to switch between Surgik and Russian. If you take people in the UK who speak in an accent, they cannot just switch it off and speak Queen's English - only if they had training in speaking "accentless".
    Why would they want to? The stigma associated with regional accents hasn't really existed for many, many decades, and learning RP went out of fashion shorty after the war and sounds totally absurd to any modern ears (at least ears not belonging to a person named Windsor). It's not that Brits are incapable of speaking "neutral" English, rather it's become generally accepted that there is no such thing as "neutral English" in the first place - no one geographical area or social caste has any more right to claim ownership over the language than any other.

    That's not to say that we don't modulate our accents depending on the context, of course we do, but knocking the edge of an accent for the sake of communication isn't the same as trying to hide it.

    I grew up speaking Scots at home, then when I started school I was punished, occasionally even beaten, for using anything other than standard English because back then Scots was considered by the British establishment to be a degenerate, vulgar form of regional English rather than a language in its own right as is the case today. Imagine, being beaten for using the language of Robert Burns in a school not 50 miles from where he lived and wrote! So you can be damn sure I and my fellow students learned to code-switch automatically at a pretty young age, speaking Scots amongst ourselves and at home and speaking Scottish Standard English while in school or whenever we found ourselves outwith our local area.

    And I still do so today. I've been away from my local area for twenty years and away from Scotland for ten so the edges have certainly been knocked off my accent, but sit me down in my old local with a group of my old friends and within a few minutes I'll be unintelligible to anyone born more than 5 miles away.

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I am just curious - how do you Ukrainians know what language to use in different social situations?
    With a stranger at the bus stop... in the market.... at university.. in a shop or department store...?
    Do you always speak the same language with some people, or do you vary even with your friends?
    What happens if a particular friend is better at one of the languages while the other prefers the other language?
    Language usage depends on the region of Ukraine. In the region, where I live, Ukrainian is used only in some official papers and some of the most official ceremonies. In Kiev AFAIK situation when each one speaks language of his choice is quite normal even for the conversation of strangers. Usually there are no problems in understanding each other. Often it leads to mixing languages and words.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  8. #8
    Hanna
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    Interesting responses to the question about which language you speak.
    Based on what you are saying, it seems like there is a not-insignificant risk that parts of Ukraine become separatist and apply for membership in the Russian Federation.... Or simply that the Russian speaking part becomes its own country, like Pridnestrovie (which I visited!!) Pridnestrovie is small enough that it can be ignored. But if something like that were to happen in the Ukraine it would be a totally different story.


    • Can I ask - why are these Russian speaking areas part of the Ukraine in the first place? Is there some "USSR related" reason......?
    • Otherwise, since Russia is right next to the Ukraine, why aren't these regions simply part of Russia?
    • Is there an "ethnic" difference between Ukrainians and Russians, or is it simply a cultural/linguistic thing...
    • Are the Russian speaking Ukrainians "real" Ukrainians?


    Would anyone prefer the option of being part of Russia, or do you think it's preferable to solve the problem in a Ukrainian context..?

    Does this question alienate you as citizens of the Ukraine or do you feel loyal to the Ukraine regardless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    since Russia is right next to the Ukraine, why aren't these regions simply part of Russia?
    LOL. When you say something like that, the etiquette requires you to add: "Всем чмоки."

    http://lurkmore.to/%D0%A7%D0%BC%D0%B...B0%D1%82%D0%B5

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    Let the epic battle begin!

    Not PC map of Ukraine from the link above:

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    why are these Russian speaking areas part of the Ukraine in the first place? Is there some "USSR related" reason......?
    That was a decision of the Soviet leaders, mainly Stalin and Khrushchev.
    Is there an "ethnic" difference between Ukrainians and Russians, or is it simply a cultural/linguistic thing...
    No, only selfdetermination, which is promoted by the state. Many "Russians" have become "Ukrainians" since the independence.

  12. #12
    Hanna
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    Not PC map of Ukraine from the link above:
    Haha, I get the idea... Interesting, I knew none of that...

    Some of the things that Gromozeka and it-ogo said, reminded me of the situation in Belgium.
    I spent some time there for work, when there was a big crisis there, due to the language issue.
    They could not even form a government. I was in Brussels, which is a "mixed" city, half the population is Dutch speaking and the other half is French speaking. Most of the Dutch speakers can speak French but don't necessarily want to. Some of the French speakers never learn Dutch very well, and the same is true for their English skills.

    People are very talented in knowing which language to speak with whom. I was walking around town with a Belgian collegue and sometimes he started talking French with people, sometimes Dutch. He said "I can usually guess". Things were very complicated in the office too - who speaks what language, and when....

    They don't HATE eachother but the main complaint is that the French speakers don't bother learning Dutch (and occassionally the other way around). They simply get on with life and most have mainly friends from one lanuage groups, but also a few friends from the other group. Some Dutch parents put their children in French speaking schools and vice versa just to make sure the child is bilingual. They also have schools that use both languages for instruction.

    The reason Belgium is a separate country is because the Belgians usually are Catholic whereas the Netherlands and the part of France bordering Belgium are protestant. But nowadays people care more about language than religion....
    gRomoZeka likes this.

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    The Belgium situation is different because French and Dutch belong to different language families, whereas Russian and Ukrainian are closely related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xdns View Post
    The Belgium situation is different because French and Dutch belong to different language families, whereas Russian and Ukrainian are closely related.
    Mmm.. I found the situation described by Hanna to be really similar to what is going on in Ukraine. Except that in Ukraine there is (probably!) a little more animosity between two groups (or more radical representatives of two groups) due to the fact that it's not only language issue, but the whole baggage of historical and continuing political controversies.

    Even the fact that Belgium is called "Belgium" (and not Francland or Dutchmania) makes at an equal field while in Ukraine the name of the state is often used as an argument in language discussions.

  15. #15
    Hanna
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    I hope you did not misunderstand me! Perhaps my post came out wrong - I simplified and did not consider how it would sound to a British person. From a Russian perspective, according to themselves, they don't even have accents, and the expression RP is not known outside of Britain, I think. I should have said BBC English though.

    I am not proposing that you should speak RP and I don't like the accent snobbery in the UK. Because of this, I retain a slight foreign accent, just to avoid people putting a label on me. My point was, some people in the UK want to change their accent but cannot. It's harder than you might think. A person that was very close to me wanted to speak less RP and more London or Derbyshire. But he simply wasn't able to. His accent was too posh and trying to speak local just made him sound ludicrous. An Indian friend of mine wanted to reduce his Indian accent, and actually took lessons for it! He was a completely fluent English speaker, but he felt that people had a stereotypical view of him because of his accent. Very ambitious person......

    I like Scots but in its most extreme forms I can't understand it, that's all. I prefer it if the BBC sticks to "standard Scottish", Welsh or neutral English because a strong accent is distracting when watching the news. So shoot me....

    If you speak Scots, did you see the thread where somebody was asking about Robert Burns?
    Translate to modern English

    Oh dear....! And like someone said, this is not like Dutch and French, they are similar languages. Not that I can understand Ukrainian though! But since it-ogo said, people could practically speak one and respond in the other (that's exactly what we do in Scandinavia and it works fine). What's the point of forcing people to use a different language than they are used to, when it is a local language?

    I imagine if somebody came to me and said that I have to fill in all papers in Danish and get Danish TV etc, etc. and Swedish would be pushed to the side. I would find that extremely irritating and insulting. I like Danish/Norwegian precisely because they are never forced on me. If they were, like one time at university, when some Danish books were mandatory reading, I'd hate it.

    Likewise the dominance of English in business. It is one thing for a French or German person if the CHOOSE to speak English. It is quite another to more or less be bullied or forced to. I am glad I speak English, but I am sometimes very ambivalent of the backside of it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I hope you did not misunderstand me! Perhaps my post came out wrong - I simplified and did not consider how it would sound to a British person. From a Russian perspective, according to themselves, they don't even have accents, and the expression RP is not known outside of Britain, I think. I should have said BBC English though.

    I am not proposing that you should speak RP and I don't like the accent snobbery in the UK. Because of this, I retain a slight foreign accent, just to avoid people putting a label on me. My point was, some people in the UK want to change their accent but cannot. It's harder than you might think. A person that was very close to me wanted to speak less RP and more London or Derbyshire. But he simply wasn't able to. His accent was too posh and trying to speak local just made him sound ludicrous. An Indian friend of mine wanted to reduce his Indian accent, and actually took lessons for it! He was a completely fluent English speaker, but he felt that people had a stereotypical view of him because of his accent. Very ambitious person......
    I don't accept your premise. Sorry

    For one thing, losing one's accent was the done thing for the aspiring middle classes for many many years and many millions of Brits did so successfully while it was the fashionable thing to do, and there are still a good number who do so now in spite of it being generally considered pretentious rather than admirable. We haven't magically lost the ability, only the motivation. Of course there will be examples of people who want to lose their accent and simply can't, but you can't generalise from those specific cases.

    Secondly, I don't accept that there is accent snobbery as such any more. Accent snobbery was looking down at people who spoke with regional accents because having such an accent was considered a sign of being working class and uneducated. What we have now is accent rivalry, or accent xenophobia, where people become targets because their accent is out of place or different, not because it's "common".

    And thirdly, you need to be sure you're talking about accent and not dialect. You mention "BBC English", but if you watch the BBC nowadays you will hear lots of different accents, some of them quite strong. What you won't [often] hear is regional (non-standard) grammar or vocabulary.

    If you speak Scots, did you see the thread where somebody was asking about Robert Burns?
    Translate to modern English
    Hadn't seen it, but have now!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    What's the point of forcing people to use a different language than they are used to, when it is a local language?
    The point is that in fact the positions of Russian language in Ukraine is much stronger than that of Ukrainian language. Russian is the de-facto uniform standard language to speak "outside one's village" while "inside village" they normally speak local dialects. Plus there are many 99%-95% Russian-speaking regions and cities. Pro-Ukrainian people argue that without forced support Ukrainian language will vanish in few generations.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  18. #18
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    The point is that in fact the positions of Russian language in Ukraine is much stronger than that of Ukrainian language. Russian is the de-facto uniform standard language to speak "outside one's village" while "inside village" they normally speak local dialects. Plus there are many 99%-95% Russian-speaking regions and cities. Pro-Ukrainian people argue that without forced support Ukrainian language will vanish in few generations.
    The sort of "patterns" of when you speak Ukrainian vs Russian are fascinating, I think. When did you, yourself speak Ukrainian last, for example? I remember you saying that you sometimes regret that you don't speak it often enough at home? I suppose there are certain

    Perhaps because I study Russian, I have been overly partial to Russian in this discussion. I don't know. And I am aware that it is not my business in any form or shape. With Latvia, I feel I have a right to a small say; after all they are in the EU and there are really strong ties with Scandinavia where I come from.

    I approve of these sorts of language-protective-measures when they are done in Wales or in Northern Scandinavia. In both these places it is essentially "too late" anyway, though. Mostly old people and rural people are really fluent in the local language. But this is the first time I have heard of "language protection measures" that are actually perceived as intrusive by speakers of the larger language. I suppose the situation in Ukraine is quite unique.

    But I foresee that we will have this situation with local language vs English, in about 50-100 years in places like the Netherlands and Scandinavia unless something change. The really sad things is that some of the biggest English proponents don't even speak English very well! They insist on using English even when there is no good reason, and then they write or speak it poorly, putting themselves at a disadvantage in comparison with native speakers.

  19. #19
    Hanna
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    This is not something worth quibbling about - we don't disagree about the principle, just on what it means and how some people view it. It's not an objective matter.

  20. #20
    Hanna
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    The BBC wrote the following about the language situation in Ukraine today.

    A contentious bill to boost the status of the Russian language in Ukraine has passed its first hurdle in parliament, in the teeth of strong opposition. MPs from the ruling Party of the Regions passed the bill in its first reading, with 234 votes in the 450-seat lower house.

    Fighting erupted in the chamber when the bill was proposed last month.
    The bill grants Russian, mother tongue of most people in east and south Ukraine, "regional language" status.

    It will become law if approved at a second reading later this year and signed off by President Viktor Yanukovych, who is seen by his critics as being close to Moscow.

    While Ukrainian would remain the country's official language, Russian could be used in courts, hospitals and other institutions in Russian-speaking regions.

    Opponents of the bill, notably the Fatherland bloc of jailed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, argue the bill would undermine the status of Ukrainian, the language which predominates in the centre and west.
    'Invaders and Russifiers' Party of the Regions MPs surrounded the speaker's tribune in parliament
    On Tuesday, Yanukovych MPs formed a cordon around parliamentary speaker Volodymyr Lytvyn to allow him to put the bill to a vote.


    Noisy, rival demonstrations for and against the bill were held outside the parliament in the capital, Kiev.
    Supporters held posters declaring "Two languages - one country" and "Our children have a right to learn in their mother tongue".


    "We want medical prescriptions written in Russian, not only in Ukrainian," Donetsk resident Lyudmila Nyronova, 69, told Reuters news agency.


    Opponents of the bill chanted "Shame!" and brandished placards which read "One state, one language", "Invaders and Russifiers - get out of Ukraine" and "Stop dividing Ukraine".


    According to AFP news agency, each rally attracted about 3,000 people.


    Some 24% of Ukrainians consider Russian their first language, according to data from the CIA World Factbook.
    See highlighted text just above. CIA Factbook, hmmm....
    Is 24% the correct figure? I

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