Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You see, I'm in no position to say that would be ridiculous or not. That's why there are provincial legislatures. A province is typically entitled to make a choice like that. I observed that if a movement like that is very strong and speaks to many citizens, the stakes in the provincial legislature would be pretty high and they would try to perhaps look for a compromise. The reason being is that the politicians are typically riding the waves to gain the votes. The present MP in that area would either vote for Ukrainian language and blame the failure on the other MPs, or face replacement in the other term. Those 'turnaround' forces are pretty strong and MPs would typically prefer to comply. There might be political tricks like following: "Oh, you want Ukrainian become another provincial language? Sure, why not! But, that would cost another $2,000,000 a year for the province and should have subsidized by the higher taxes. Are you ready for that?!!" And then there's going to be the whole fuss about that which would either settle down to the higher provincial taxes or to the majority rejecting that on that ground. But, not because: "Ahh!! Those Ukrainians came to our country and now want to be a dominant force and discriminate against Metis who are 7th number in the population and not the 10th!!" And so on. Do you see the difference?

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You mentioned that, and I mentioned a peaceful solution that worked. Would you be able to elaborate why that solution would not work in Ukraine if implemented? An official language means that the citizen has a right to request a service from the state in either of the official language and the state is required by law to provide the service in that language.

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, honestly, I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian economy that well, but deep down I sense making Russian another official language would bring more money to the state than actually would be spent by the state to maintain the extra resources. Does it make sense?

what extra resources do you mean?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Unfortunately, I didn't get that. Would you be able to spell it out for a simple-minded crocodile?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I happen to spend some time in Ukraine once in a while and I noticed a growing concern that some of the people have trouble with that sole-Ukrainian thing. My impression (I might be wrong though) was that the assertion of all-Ukrainian was based on the promises of some of the former government officials for the tighter integration with the European Union and the subsequent inevitable economic prosperity and political freedoms. So, to make something of a slogan, that was: "Let's break free from Russian dominance and integrate with Europe on the equal terms!" More recently I observed a growing disillusionment in that idea. Rather, that seemed like a playing card in the East vs the West parts' of the country power games. (I'm probably oversimplifying that, but I trust you forgive me.) The economic and political tension between the two parts of Ukraine have seem to be growing with every year. And whilst one of the sides is looking for the support from Russia, the other side is looking for the support from the West (let's call it that way). Traditionally, those kind of tensions find their implementations in the separatist sentiments and, subsequently, movements. In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

The law is not the Ten Commandments. The law is for the people and not the people are for the law.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

what extra resources do you mean?

Money.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Unfortunately, I didn't get that. Would you be able to spell it out for a simple-minded crocodile?

you said it best below - Let's break free from Russian dominance

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I happen to spend some time in Ukraine once in a while and I noticed a growing concern that some of the people have trouble with that sole-Ukrainian thing. My impression (I might be wrong though) was that the assertion of all-Ukrainian was based on the promises of some of the former government officials for the tighter integration with the European Union and the subsequent inevitable economic prosperity and political freedoms. So, to make something of a slogan, that was: "Let's break free from Russian dominance and integrate with Europe on the equal terms!" More recently I observed a growing disillusionment in that idea. Rather, that seemed like a playing card in the East vs the West parts' of the country power games. (I'm probably oversimplifying that, but I trust you forgive me.) The economic and political tension between the two parts of Ukraine have seem to be growing with every year. And whilst one of the sides is looking for the support from Russia, the other side is looking for the support from the West (let's call it that way). Traditionally, those kind of tensions find their implementations in the separatist sentiments and, subsequently, movements. In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

not sure what observations you base your opinion on, but on the surface there's none of that now, there's a single common enemy now - Yanukovich, for Ukrainian nationalists because under his regime Ukrainian revival stopped and for Russian speaking regions and the whole population in general because he didn't keep his promises and the situation actually worsened

there's a joke that the only promise he did keep is he united the entire Ukraine (against himself)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The law is not the Ten Commandments. The law is for the people and not the people are for the law.

i already wrote that this law is unconstitutional and constitution IS 10 Commandments for orderly statehood

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Money.

i don't see how it can bring in more investments

i personally wouldn't be too happy about Russian investments, to attract investments from other countries favorable economic, financial and legal climate should be in place

For example Chinese importers are complaining about overrated import taxes which hurt their business
Китайцы жалуются на беспредел украинских таможенников

it's not really investments but still they pay to the treasury, and it illustrates the climate of lawlessness fest

i don't think they care what language is official in Ukraine, they know neither

Originally Posted by LXNDR

1. you said it best below - Let's break free from Russian dominance
2. there's a single common enemy now - Yanukovich

Well, and I guess Yushenko had not delivered on the economic prosperity because of the same common enemy - Yanukovich? Or maybe there already was economic prosperity and Yanukovich had just slaughtered the chicken which laid the golden eggs?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, and I guess Yushenko had not delivered on the economic prosperity because of the same common enemy - Yanukovich? Or maybe there already was economic prosperity and Yanukovich had just slaughtered the chicken which laid the golden eggs?

no, he only slaughtered civil liberties which began to bud during the 'oranges' and didn't deliver his socioeconomic promises even to his own electorate, for whom he wasn't enemy at the time

civil liberties was the only characteristic which positively distinguished Ukraine against other slavic post-soviet states during Yushenko

wanna hear what retirees who are literally ready to vote for anyone who hands them a pack of free buckwheat think of him?

it's in his hometown



another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xHECL9128A