Thread: Madrid

ach

I hear ya!

& too

I wonder if we are going to hear "Oh the Spanish government did it because they want a free hand against the brave Basque separatists"... you know the kind of stories we always end up hearing when something of the kind happens in Russia.

Originally Posted by bad manners

I wonder if we are going to hear "Oh the Spanish government did it because they want a free hand against the brave Basque separatists"... you know the kind of stories we always end up hearing when something of the kind happens in Russia.

Well, there are points of comparison: both nations are 'new' democracies; both have dealt very badly with a long-standing problem.

The Spanish government ain't sanctioning kidnap on the streets of Vitoria though.

Originally Posted by bad manners

I wonder if we are going to hear "Oh the Spanish government did it because they want a free hand against the brave Basque separatists"... you know the kind of stories we always end up hearing when something of the kind happens in Russia.

not like that wasnt posed against the us government after 9=11. Some french author even had a best seller talking about the conspiracy.

Man, am I feeling a dickhead... I meant 'I hear ya' as a sarcastic comment (seeing how it apparently had nothing whatsoever to do with anything), but I hadn't heard about the tragedy yet. Sarcasm not meant.

Originally Posted by joysof

The Spanish government ain't sanctioning kidnap on the streets of Vitoria though.

Read it a few times I have but see a connection with my question I cannot.

Russian conduct in Chechnya vs. Spanish conduct in Basque territory.

Because the Russians act so brutally in Chechnya, people will be more likely to think "bad" things about them. I guess that's what he meant. Or something...

I'll wait for a reply from joysof anyway. I still do not see a connection with kidnapping – the Chechens used to kidnap the Russians, but I do not think it was ever sanctioned by the Russian government.

Your explanation (not to say I agree) seems to imply that the Chechens are a lot more likely to "strike back" than the Basque, yet we constantly hear "it was the government, it was the FSB, etc". In the case of Spain, as you again seem to imply, the Basque are treated so much more humanly by the Spanish (I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity), and so should not even think about doing all those horrid things. Thus it is a lot more natural to suspect the government than in the case of Russia, yet it is quite strangely the other way around. A paradox:

1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.

Originally Posted by bad manners

I'll wait for a reply from joysof anyway. I still do not see a connection with kidnapping – the Chechens used to kidnap the Russians, but I do not think it was ever sanctioned by the Russian government.

I'm not talking about kidnappings. I'm talking about people being brought in by Russian troops and "disappearing".

Your explanation (not to say I agree)

I figured as much...

seems to imply that the Chechens are a lot more likely to "strike back" than the Basque, yet we constantly hear "it was the government, it was the FSB, etc".

No, I was saying that the Russian reputation is such a bad one, you could expect anything from them. Putin = Stalin and that kind of BS.

(I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity)

No razzias? Might that have anything to do with it? If you are trying to equate Russian actions in Chechnya with Spanish actions in the Basque territories, I'd suggest you read a bit more on the subject

1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.

I explained the reasoning behind this.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

No, I was saying that the Russian reputation is such a bad one, you could expect anything from them. Putin = Stalin and that kind of BS.

Quite right. So to sum it up, no matter what the Russians really do, as soon as a biased reporter says "the Russians do these horrible things AGAIN", everybody buys that, no questions asked. We're in agreement here.

[quote=bad manners]

Originally Posted by "Gollandski Yozh":48784298

No, I was saying that the Russian reputation is such a bad one, you could expect anything from them. Putin = Stalin and that kind of BS.

Quite right. So to sum it up, no matter what the Russians really do, as soon as a biased reporter says "the Russians do these horrible things AGAIN", everybody buys that, no questions asked. We're in agreement here.[/quote:48784298]

If I would have had a diary, I'm sure I would have noted: "Bad manners and me have been in agreement today on the forum. Is this a sign that everything will work out fine in the end?"

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

The Spanish government ain't sanctioning kidnap on the streets of Vitoria though.

Read it a few times I have but see a connection with my question I cannot.

Explain I shall.

Quite simple really: if we're making a comparison between Spain and the Basques and Russia and the Chechens (which, I think, is what you were aiming for), we need to get a few things straight.

Similarities:

- the majority of Basques do not want total self-determination; ditto Chechens.
- the problems exist not just on a territorial/political level, but are entwined with of all notions of both Russian and Spanish nationhood; it’s part of what you get when you don't emerge as a sovereign state until the Middle Ages have come and gone and then spend hundreds of years bathing in glorious blood instead of inching towards representative government and a sensible imperial policy.

Differences:

- Spain has finally learnt its lesson in recent years (see below for more). What happened on Thursday was not the work of Eta in any recognisable manifestation: due to a combination of sensible opposition and internal atrophy, they're a spent force. Conversely, Putin's administration, like Yeltsin's (and Stalin's and Nicholas I's and Ivan the Terrible's and...) before it, seems intent on insanely hard-line responses. This is not, as the British at long last have seen in Northern Ireland, the way to deal with bolshy ethnic minorities.

In the case of Spain, as you again seem to imply, the Basque are treated so much more humanly by the Spanish (I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity), and so should not even think about doing all those horrid things.

Since you asked so nicely (and since your thirst for knowledge is just so darned charming): since 1975, the Basques - through a combination of popular pressure, Batasuna feist and Eta 'encouragement’ - have achieved an unprecedented degree of autonomy: tax-raising powers, education, health and policing are all now concentrated in the hands of the regional government; Chechnya, meanwhile, has Kadyrov and his cronies/relatives - a puppet regime, in effect.

A paradox:

1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.

I was in a crowded metro train the last time Chechens decided to make kasha of the folks of Moscow. From a purely personal point of view, I'd rather have Eta. However much I hate this Russian government, it goes without saying that I hate the suicide-bombers more.

Think that covers it.

Oh, the kidnap thing:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/art...167584,00.html

http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/2.../03/43915.html

http://www.msf.org/countries/page.cf...B6EC2359B0FD2A

Originally Posted by joysof

- the majority of Basques do not want total self-determination; ditto Chechens.

Is that so? I thought the Chechens taken 'en masse' were quite keen on it. But really I don't know. I am, after all, a bear of very little brain.

Originally Posted by joysof

Differences:

- Spain has finally learnt its lesson in recent years (see below for more). What happened on Thursday was not the work of Eta in any recognisable manifestation: due to a combination of sensible opposition and internal atrophy, they're a spent force. Conversely, Putin's administration, like Yeltsin's (and Stalin's and Nicholas I's and Ivan the Terrible's and...) before it, seems intent on insanely hard-line responses. This is not, as the British at long last have seen in Northern Ireland, the way to deal with bolshy ethnic minorities.

Another difference: the Chechen state, when it was granted pretty much sovereignty, ended up attacking Russia. Would you remind that phrase in your second mother tongue that mentions "la guerre" two times?

Since you asked so nicely (and since your thirst for knowledge is just so darned charming): since 1975, the Basques - through a combination of popular pressure, Batasuna feist and Eta 'encouragement’ - have achieved an unprecedented degree of autonomy: tax-raising powers, education, health and policing are all now concentrated in the hands of the regional government; Chechnya, meanwhile, has Kadyrov and his cronies/relatives - a puppet regime, in effect.

See above. The Chechens had a lot more than that. It is only fair that they have a lot less now.

I was in a crowded metro train the last time Chechens decided to make kasha of the folks of Moscow. From a purely personal point of view, I'd rather have Eta. However much I hate this Russian government, it goes without saying that I hate the suicide-bombers more.

But why do we always hear "the Russians did that themselves"? Why do we not hear it now that everybody knows that ETA is pretty much pass

Originally Posted by waxwing

Originally Posted by joysof

- the majority of Basques do not want total self-determination; ditto Chechens.

Is that so? I thought the Chechens taken 'en masse' were quite keen on it. But really I don't know. I am, after all, a bear of very little brain.

Validata is an independent polling organisation:

http://www.validata.ru/e_e/chechnya/

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by joysof

Differences:

- Spain has finally learnt its lesson in recent years (see below for more). What happened on Thursday was not the work of Eta in any recognisable manifestation: due to a combination of sensible opposition and internal atrophy, they're a spent force. Conversely, Putin's administration, like Yeltsin's (and Stalin's and Nicholas I's and Ivan the Terrible's and...) before it, seems intent on insanely hard-line responses. This is not, as the British at long last have seen in Northern Ireland, the way to deal with bolshy ethnic minorities.

Another difference: the Chechen state, when it was granted pretty much sovereignty, ended up attacking Russia.

The last thing I'm doing is defending Maskhadov and Basayev.

See above. The Chechens had a lot more than that. It is only fair that they have a lot less now.

They 'deserve' an undeclared, unmonitored dirty war, do they? All of them?

That's not even funny. Somebody is kidnapped by the Chechen bandits who’ve been living off this business for over a decade now, yet the Russian government is blamed. Can it be more irrational than that?

There are a lot of irrational people around, it seems:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chec...htm#P171_30706

But why do we always hear "the Russians did that themselves"?

I have only ever heard that after the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and, loath though I am to give credence to anything originating from that crook Berezovsky, there was a sufficient circumstantial evidence at the time to raise international eyebrows.

Originally Posted by joysof

Originally Posted by waxwing

Originally Posted by joysof

- the majority of Basques do not want total self-determination; ditto Chechens.

Is that so? I thought the Chechens taken 'en masse' were quite keen on it. But really I don't know. I am, after all, a bear of very little brain.

Validata is an independent polling organisation:

http://www.validata.ru/e_e/chechnya/

At the risk of becoming one of those internet saddos who can't admit it when he's wrong, I wonder about the ethnic split? The figures in that poll are for a sample of the population of Chechnya. What proportion of the population are ethnic Chechens, and what proportion are Russians? I don't make any moral implication from it, just want to know.

By the way, a couple of days ago 4 militia men were shot about 100km outside of Stavropol by some guys in a car. Chechens I think. Something like that, haven't read the details.
Yours twitchingly,
Waxwing

Originally Posted by joysof

See above. The Chechens had a lot more than that. It is only fair that they have a lot less now.

They 'deserve' an undeclared, unmonitored dirty war, do they? All of them?

Good stuff, joysof. Stop putting words in my mouth. We're were comparing them with that thing in Spain, remember? One of the "more humanly" things in Spain was a higher level of independence, according to you. I said that the Chechens had that and far more than that, but they used their sovereignty in ways very dangerous to Russia. So that sovereignty was revoked and now they have to play the same ball as anyone else in Russia.

Oh, and the war is over. What we're seeing now is mopping up of the bandits. Or do you believe that the Chechens would be a lot happier if left alone with those bandits?

[quote:shnslxe6]That's not even funny. Somebody is kidnapped by the Chechen bandits who’ve been living off this business for over a decade now, yet the Russian government is blamed. Can it be more irrational than that?

There are a lot of irrational people around, it seems:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chec...htm#P171_30706[/quote:shnslxe6]

Compare that with

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan ... oc64778169

And how is that different?

I have only ever heard that after the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and, loath though I am to give credence to anything originating from that crook Berezovsky, there was a sufficient circumstantial evidence at the time to raise international eyebrows.

I hope you do see now, with the recent bombings et al, that even in 1999 the Chechens were a lot more likely to do that rather than anybody else.