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Thread: Liberties of the Russian people .

  1. #1
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    Liberties of the Russian people .

    I was wondering , what kind of personal freedoms do you Russians get ? For example , freedom of speech , religion , ect . ?

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    It depends on what are you calling 'personal freedom'. In the case of religion it's not a problem. There are four religions called 'traditional religions' by the law: Christian (Orthodox and others), Muslim, Buddism and Judaism. Many people are atheists. But some radical religions sects are officialy banned.
    As for so-called freedom of speech... The four official state TV channels are shows only pro-goverment point of view, but there are plenty of goverment critic on other TV channels, radio, in newspapers and of course internet. Also compared to Western society, Russian society is much less conserned about 'political correctness' so in that case we have more freedom.

    P.S. When someone ask a question about freedom of speech in Russia, I'm always remembering a joke from Soviet times when Russian and American leaders arguing wich country has more freedom. American president says:
    - One could come out to the square in front of the White House and cry: "American president is an as$hole!". And there will be no punishment.
    General Secretary of Communist Party of USSR answers:
    - Big deal! One could come out to the Red Square too and cry: "American president is an as$hole!". And there will be no punishment either.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    There's enough freedom of speech to say things about Russian president either. It's probably OK to criticize the government because nobody really cares about who tells what. Russians, of all people are probably the most distrustful and suspicious kind in the whole world. Thus, nobody really cares about who tells what (and neither does the government). There are two reasons for this: a) Everyone knows that every official, every man in the government and the Duma are corrupt criminals anyway, so nothing about them would really surprise people; and b) Nobody really trusts journalists or politicians enough to take what they say or write at face value. Everybody lies.
    Send me a PM if you need me.

  4. #4
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    a) Everyone knows that every official, every man in the government and the Duma are corrupt criminals anyway, so nothing about them would really surprise people; and b) Nobody really trusts journalists or politicians enough to take what they say or write at face value. Everybody lies.
    How depressing. I don't know how you can live like that. No wonder so many people emigrate from Russia. And as a follow on; why should anyone fight and/or die protecting a country run by crooks and liars? If this is true, then patriotism in Russia ought to be stone dead!

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    You need to make a distinction between the country and the state. One can love his country but hate the state.
    Send me a PM if you need me.

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    Завсегдатай chaika's Avatar
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    >Nobody really trusts journalists or politicians enough to take what they say or write at face value

    Judging by how many Russian journalists have been murdered over the past few years and strangely enough few of the murderers have been found, somebody seems to take them seriously.

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    And as a follow on; why should anyone fight and/or die protecting a country run by crooks and liars? If this is true, then patriotism in Russia ought to be stone dead!
    First, I don't think that the picture is strongly differ from any country around the world. All politicans are crooks and liars, didn't you know that? Second, Russia was run like that for centuries, patriotism has nothing to do with this, do you think that we never had some patriotic feelings?

    Quote Originally Posted by chaika
    Judging by how many Russian journalists have been murdered over the past few years and strangely enough few of the murderers have been found, somebody seems to take them seriously
    I strongly doubt that Putin gives orders to kill some journalists. More likely the majority of those who were murdered touched some interests of some criminal bosses. And they haven't been found because our police (militia) sucks. They usually don't do nothing to catch a criminal if he wasn't caught at the crime scene.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

  8. #8
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    First, I don't think that the picture is strongly differ from any country around the world. All politicans are crooks and liars, didn't you know that? Second, Russia was run like that for centuries, patriotism has nothing to do with this, do you think that we never had some patriotic feelings?
    I really don't think that all politicians are corrupt. It depends on what country you compare with. In several smaller countries in Europe there is practically no corruption among politicians. It's certainly not perfect, but there is no unholy alliance between business and politicians to rip off the people and manipulate politics, like there seems to be in the USA and Russia at the moment.

    I know Russians are patriotic on holidays etc.... Seems to me like those who really love their country should try to do something stop it from being abused and plundered by crooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    You need to make a distinction between the country and the state. One can love his country but hate the state.
    Yeah that's true... That's an interesting discussion, really. Why should people be (or not be) patriots... Plus in the case of people from the ex-USSR area, it becomes more complicated since they were born in one country.. and find themselves living in another, without actually having moved... And also; people seemed to be mixed a bit; Russians living outside of Russia, and people from other parts of the CIS area living in Russia. How does that affect things... ?

    Regardless though; I think the way that the country is run affects whether you want to live there or not..! If politicians make a complete shambles of things or the political climate is intolerable for some reason; then I imagine it must be hard to feel patriotic.

    I agree that Russian culture and nature are both great, and I can understand this compensates for the other areas.

  9. #9
    Почётный участник lemoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    You need to make a distinction between the country and the state. One can love his country but hate the state.
    Dear Ramil and Hanna, it's like I've watching the conversation between a greek and a foreigner. The whole same stuff happens in Greece over the past few years. And yes, Ramil, you're sooo right as for the distinction between state and country.
    As I have discussed with other russians as well, I've come to conclusion, that one way or another, the situation in your country is quite similar to mine. Everybody lies. People don't care about anything anymore, they're just struggling to survive, nothing else is important to them.
    But I quite agree with Chaika as well. Many peculiar deaths have occurred among russian journalists. Therefore, Ramil, I guess that "somebody" cares after all about what is being said, or is going to be said... isn't it?
    Anyway, it comes to a conclusion, that corruption is well established in Russia as well as in many other countries one of which is also Greece.

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    Почтенный гражданин Misha Tal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    All politicans are crooks and liars, didn't you know that?
    Absolutely true. This is not just a usual politician-baiting rant from Basil. It's a basic fact. Not a single politician has become a politician for the good of the public. Politics is an endless quest for power. And corruption is in the nature of power. There's no room for optimism.

    Hanna, you originally come from one of the most democratic parts of the world, and live in one of the oldest continuous democracies. It's no surprise that you find Basil's (and Ramil's) views rather cynical. But a Greek, or an Iranian, would be much more likely to agree with them.

    @Basil:
    Two questions:
    1-What do you think of Vladimir Zhirinovsky? I'm just curious.
    2-That Soviet joke. Here's a slightly different version, told by someone you definitely know (starting from around 2:13). What do you think of that guy?

    Nice new avatar, by the way!
    "If in the end, Misha, you are destined to lose this game, there is no need for the reason to be cowardice!"

  11. #11
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    Thank you , and for the record , I'm not comparing our country's . I'm just curious .

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    You need to make a distinction between the country and the state. One can love his country but hate the state.
    ...and still want to leave.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal View Post
    @Basil:
    Two questions:
    1-What do you think of Vladimir Zhirinovsky? I'm just curious.
    You should ask Ramil about Zhirinovsky, at least he voted for him. I think that if all politicans are cynics than Zhirinovsky is a squared super-cynic. His party was known as 'pay and we vote for anything' in the former Duma while their votes still mattered. He sucsessfully playing a role of clown to stay in the politic. I really wonder how people can vote for such a jerk:



    2-That Soviet joke. Here's a slightly different version, told by someone you definitely know (starting from around 2:13). What do you think of that guy?
    I think of him exactly as the joke says - he was complete as$hole. His 'star wars' doctrinie (so-called strategic defence initiative), 'Empire of Evil' (wtf!), even current financial world crisis is a result of financial policy started by the same ol' Ronny. He should stay an actor and play in sh!tty movies instead of becoming a politican.

    Nice new avatar, by the way!
    Thanks! I took it from here: It's from 'Scandinavia and the World' series by Danish cartoonist.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Старший оракул
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    The "Empire of Evil" stuff definitely didn't sit well with Russians.
    Soviet propaganda wasn't very fond of America either, but Reagan crossed the line.
    That was the first time I felt like the USA was a real enemy, not just a bitter competitor.

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    Почтенный гражданин Misha Tal's Avatar
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    Is that photo real??? I mean, no Photoshop tricks or anything? God! I knew he's a bit out of his mind, but I wouldn't suspect him to be such a retard...

    ...while their votes still mattered.
    Does that mean they don't matter any more? The guy himself is on TV channels day and night...
    "If in the end, Misha, you are destined to lose this game, there is no need for the reason to be cowardice!"

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal View Post
    Is that photo real??? I mean, no Photoshop tricks or anything? God! I knew he's a bit out of his mind, but I wouldn't suspect him to be such a retard...
    Yes, it's real. It was on state TV channels - he is propaganding vaccination against bird flu.

    Does that mean they don't matter any more? The guy himself is on TV channels day and night...
    Yes, their votes don't matter since United Russia has absolute majority in State Duma, (more than 2/3), that means they could change even the Constitution by their votes alone.

    Another famous video of Zhirinovsky (Warning, a lot of swearing!):

    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

  17. #17
    Hanna
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    The Axis of Evil is a myth - those countries are only "evil" towards their own citizens, if at all. But there might possibly be an Empire of Evil which thinks nothing of manipulation & deception, starting wars and placing nukes at its' bases across the world, supporting ruthless dictators etc, etc. Just as long as its corporations can continue to rake in the money, and its citizens can eat burgers and drive gas monster cars everywhere they go....

    And another comment: I am beginning to think Russia should have another revolution: Against corruption. At least during the Soviet era, the profit from corruption stayed in the country... At the moment it is very obviously spent on Bond Street, on London property, in Dubai, or sitting at Swiss bank accounts.... While honest Russian pensioners can hardly afford to buy decent food -- despite having worked all their lives to build up the country and fought in the war too... A very tragic and ironic situation, I think!

    And about my country being democratic
    : Yes; we've been "lucky" and are traditionally hard working and well organised. But the political correctness has exceeded all reasonable limits now and if it continues like that; our whole area will go to the dogs.

    BUT: I am going back anyway though.. Can't stand London anymore. In April I am OUT of here --- hurrah, at last! And I am taking a big detour East before I go back to Sweden.. More about that in my MR blog that I am about to start.

  18. #18
    Властелин
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    Hanna, I don't know what country you come from, but if it's Sweden, then (no offence) you should understand that Sweden is not a major power in the world politics and it's very small with a tiny (relatively) population. That means Swedes have no ambitions on the world stage and they tend to keep to themselves. Hence the level of corruption is very low since it's always quieter in a tiny hamlet where you know everyone, than it is in a huge metropolis where many many many warring parties are fighting over influence and resources.

    Russia on the other hand is 1) a major power player 2) is very rich in resources 3) has means to influence world politics 4) very huge and scarcely populated (which means people in different provinces do not really feel connected) And to add more to that, Russia suffered a total state and economy collapse 20 years ago (yes - it shook the very foundations of society and reshaped them - in a bloody and violent way). Also Soviet Socialism was an artificial construct, an experiment going against all human nature which severely traumatized and twisted your average Russian's mentality. Russians are recovering, but it's a slow process, it'll take tens of years (if not a hundred) to change something if nothing happens (like a full-scale war or a natural disaster).

    Also Russia is an empire and all empires are very corrupt by definition. Also Russians generally do not associate themselves with Russia and its future. They hate their country and are always willing to sabotage the state (even if they themselves do not realize it). Also tomorrow doesn't look promising to Russians, so you really want to hoard as much resources as you can to secure your and your family's future.

    But this stuff is really subtle. You wouldn't notice anything like that if you just came and lived in Russia for a while. You would find it very kind, calm and hospitable. I would say I feel much more freedom in Russia than in any EU state. In Russia noone cares about you as long as you're not a threat to others. You can be yourself, not someone other poeple want you to be.

    America is too an absolutely corrupt and cynical state. The only difference is that its average citizen is wealthier and that it didn't have to build its economy from the scratch in the last 20 years, but if America experiences something similar to what Russia had in 1991, mark my words - you'll not recognize it and I certainly wouldn't want to be caught in the middle. It was a wonder that Russia remained a single state, America would not be so lucky.
    -- Да? Коту Ваське, бл##?
    -- Нет, Я кот Васька :-/

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    Dear Vincent, please go back to lurking or get back on your meds; preferably both.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

  20. #20
    Властелин
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    Look, there's no need to get personal, I am telling of my own experience, if yours is different, fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. Lurking is good for you since you obviously have nothign to contribute to the discussion (except for childish and immature totally useless comments on someone else's personality which are completely irrelevant to the topic)
    -- Да? Коту Ваське, бл##?
    -- Нет, Я кот Васька :-/

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