Thread: Lenin: Good or bad?

I SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE ARMY!! SERIOUSLY! (IMAGINE IF I WERE DRAFTED BEFORE USSR IMPLODED?)

Ребята, вы настоящие бизоны! Индустриализация против социализма - это сильное противопоставление!

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Ребята, вы настоящие бизоны! Индустриализация против социализма - это сильное противопоставление!

Собственно, я не бизон, но про остальных ничего не могу сказать.
Штука в том, что индустриализация приводится как одно из самых значимых достижений Советской власти. Современная пропаганда величия СССР стоит на трёх китах: индустриализация, победа над Германией и достижения в области науки и спорта. Я лишь хотел показать, что пропаганда всегда остаётся лишь пропагандой, а отнюдь не истиной в последней инстанции. И любой из трёх китов тому пример.

победа над Германией

If you didn't know history and just looked at WW2 casualties and quality of life now - you might think that Germany won WW2...

Originally Posted by nulle

If you didn't know history and just looked at WW2 casualties and quality of life now - you might think that Germany won WW2...

Well, that is another common misconception. Germany did not achieve its goals in the WWII, so it lost in the war. The amount of casualties is never a goal in a war, but a price. The wars are being started by the politicians to achieve their own goals and the goals of the power group they represent. And those goals are being transformed to the so-called 'national interests' by the very same group. The WWII had been started by the power clique naming itself the 3rd Reich and their goals had not ultimately been achieved - the group had lost power and many lives. Nothing to do with the amount of casualties and the quality of life of modern Germany.

Just started reading "Russia in the Shadows" by Wells. Recommend to anyone, who want to get feeling about the environment that Lenin was acting in.
I realize that I have got almost no idea about the life in Russia at those times, so any view from outside is the valuable piece of information.

Yes Crocodile - I know all of this.
But Russian/USSR propaganda about so called "victory" still looks ridiculous if you look at Russia and Germany/Japan/Italy today.
I heard story/anecdote somewhere about a tourist from USSR who visited West Germany.
And when he went into supermarket he fainted with words "Но мы же победили!"

Originally Posted by nulle

Yes Crocodile - I know all of this.
But Russian/USSR propaganda about so called "victory" still looks ridiculous if you look at Russia and Germany/Japan/Italy today.
I heard story/anecdote somewhere about a tourist from USSR who visited West Germany.
And when he went into supermarket he fainted with words "Но мы же победили!"

Yeah, that's an old joke (dated early 80s) strongly associated with the similar "sausage" joke. In both cases, I don't think the stories are real, since those people who had the permission to go abroad to visit the West Germany lived pretty well in USSR as well. And sometimes a way better than an average person in West Germany, so they couldn't really faint. An ordinary people weren't allowed out of the "socialist camp". The exception being those whose work was closely associated with traveling, like ballet/circus/musicians, sailors, etc. But those were under rather strict control and also were unable to visit a supermarket.

Those jokes were made up and they reflect the sad truth that the quality of life in the USSR was typically worse than in the European/US/Japan capitalist countries. However, the capitalism does not necessarily means a high quality of life for everybody. Another truth some of the late-80 political activists didn't know. The sad consequences followed.

As for the victory over the Nazi Germany, I don't think it's fair to bring it with respect to the quality-of-life context. Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better. I think rather opposite is true. It is well-known, that some of the territories in Ukraine had greeted Nazis with smile and flowers as they remembered the time Ukraine was under Keizer Germany occupation after the 1917 and the changes that followed after Germans left. But, the Nazis showed their goals were different and, as a result, they got partisans stabbing their backs.

Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better.

Well - USSR and Nazi Germany themselves started this war as allies (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

Originally Posted by nulle

Well - USSR and Nazi Germany themselves started this war as allies (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

And what difference does it make in our discussion? Alright, so in a wider sense both were the aggressors. The Nazi Germany started the war having the goals of expansion as much as the USSR. By the end of the war the Nazi Germany shrunk and the USSR expanded. As an aggressor, the USSR achieved more of its goals than the Nazi Germany. But whenever the victory over the Nazi Germany is praised as a achievement of the USSR, the Nazi Germany was clearly an aggressor and the USSR was a defender, thus making the part of the WWII between the summer of 1941 to the spring of the 1945 a patriotic war for the USSR. Of course, later the same year 1945 the USSR became aggressor assaulting Japan, but that's another story, which is usually not stated as one of the greatest achievements of the USSR. Even though it was a great victory. The entire Japanses army which was the major force on the continent had been destroyed in four weeks.

И все же, то что над Рейхстагом взвился красный флаг, это очень неплохо. Правда сейчас говорят, что водрузили его вовсе не Егоров и Кантария, которых принято показывать на всех открытках, но это уже внутреннее дело.

Speaking about Lenin, has anyone been to the mausoleum and seen his body?
What did you think of the experience?
What, if anything, did you get out of it?

I think that is a tourist activity that I would NOT do in Moscow. I don't fancy looking at a dead body and I have read somewhere that there are terrible queues.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Speaking about Lenin, has anyone been to the mausoleum and seen his body?
What did you think of the experience?
What, if anything, did you get out of it?

I visited the Mausoleum ten years ago. It is solemn but a bit creepy experience. After waiting in a long queue you enter the underground crypt and pass slowly in pitch darkness round the opened coffin protected by bulletproof glass and illuminated by bleak light. After that you emerge on the surface again and, squinting your eyes, find yourself strolling along the Kremlin wall necropolis with tombs of Soviet leaders - Stalin, Brezhnev, Andropov etc. There are also mass graves of revolutionary fighters and many urns with ashes of famous people: writer Maxim Gorky, aircraft test pilot Valery Chkalov, the father of the Soviet atomic bomb Igor Kurchatov, rocket engineer Sergei Korolev, the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin and marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Zhukov, to name just a few.

Some tips for prospective visitors. It is not allowed to stop and stare or even talk while inside, and you'll be warned if you don't comply with the rules. Also guards at the entrance will stop you if you're carrying any bags, so you should leave your stuff somewhere, for example in the paid cloakroom, before joining the queue.

Помню бы еще ребенком, длинная очередь в 6:00 утра в Александровском саду и люди в штатском, которые шныряли в толпе грубым образом вытаскивали руки посетителей из их (посетителей) карманов. Сумки и прочие вещи, в т.ч. Все что было в карманах нужно было сдать в бесплатную камеру хранения. Говорят, так стало после того, как кто-то посетителей запустил в Ленина молоток. У меня в кармане были сигареты и я пришел просто в ужас, но благо мои карманы никто не проверял.
На подходе к Мавзолею останавливаться было уже нельзя, нужно было идти только вперед. Подозрительных лиц грубо вытаскивали из толпы и куда-то уводили потом "вливали" обратно в толпу.
Когда мы стали спускаться, я увидел, что в каждому углу лестничного пролета тоже стоит часовой. И возле горбницы еще кажется 4 человека, два спереди и два сзади (насчет задних двух я, вообще говоря, не уверен). Вышли мы откуда-то с другой стороны, фактически это как в подземном переходе - спустился, прошел по коридору, попутно взглянул на тело Ленина и поднялся на другом конце.

Что меня удивило тогда, что у Ленина была очень маленькая головенка. Я почему-то думал что у Ленина голова будет огромных размеров.

Interesting story mishau! I guess Lenin was a fairly short man then? I remember somebody else who had visited there commenting on the same thing.
Apparently the USSR started a bit of a trend when they decided to keep Lenin on display like this. Several Communist countries did the same thing when their leaders died. I read an article on this - apparently it's extremely expensive to preserve a dead body year after year.
Don't know what Russians in general think of keeping Lenin like this, but personally I really think it's a bit morbid. I would not want a dead body to be one one the main tourist attractions in my city.....

Originally Posted by Hanna

I guess Lenin was a fairly short man then?

Но печник - душа живая,- Знай меня, не лыком шит! - Припугнуть еще желая: - Как фамилия? - кричит.
Тот вздохнул, пожал плечами:
Лысый, ростом невелик.
Ленин,- просто отвечает.
Ленин?! - Тут и сел старик.
(А. Твардовский. "Ленин и печник", 1966)

Originally Posted by Hanna

I would not want a dead body to be one one the main tourist attractions in my city.....

Это даже как-то не вполне в православных обычаях. Странно смотреть на играющего ныне в православие дядюшку Зю