Thread: Latest from Ukraine

At this point, I think it's important to focus on the historical events in other countries.
Tbh, what the UPA did was no worse than what the American settlers did in the 18th century - or other purges and genocides in other countries.
The US began with the attempted genocide of the Native American people. They also used very seriously inhumane methods to kill them. Now the Native Americans are 2nd class citizens in the US. I see a parallel in Ukraine.
Throughout history, Ukrainians have been controlled by Polish-Lithuanians, Austrians, Germans, and Russians but they never had the chance to control themselves... until recently. I think Bandera was the breaking point.
So, maybe the Ultra-Nationalists were feeling a lot frustrated?



It's what makes me believe that the Ukrainians are a unique culture. And I also believe that the Ultra-Nationalists are a minority in that culture - like the KKK is a minority in American culture. But do KKK members control the government? Who knows? Memberships in radical organizations can be concealed.
Ukraine is bi-lingual and bi-cultural and that's why I think the only real solution is Federalization. What? Individual regions of the Ukraine might secede from the Union? I doubt that. US states also have the right to secede but the central government does have the right to block secession.
As for Crimea, it never legally seceded from Russia. There was no referendum or vote by the people to do that.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

At this point, I think it's important to focus on the historical events in other countries.
Tbh, what the UPA did was no worse than what the American settlers did in the 18th century - or other purges and genocides in other countries.
The US began with the attempted genocide of the Native American people. They also used very seriously inhumane methods to kill them. Now the Native Americans are 2nd class citizens in the US. I see a parallel in Ukraine.
Throughout history, Ukrainians have been controlled by Polish-Lithuanians, Austrians, Germans, and Russians but they never had the chance to control themselves... until recently. I think Bandera was the breaking point.
So, maybe the Ultra-Nationalists were feeling a lot frustrated?



It's what makes me believe that the Ukrainians are a unique culture. And I also believe that the Ultra-Nationalists are a minority in that culture - like the KKK is a minority in American culture. But do KKK members control the government? Who knows? Memberships in radical organizations can be concealed.
Ukraine is bi-lingual and bi-cultural and that's why I think the only real solution is Federalization. What? Individual regions of the Ukraine might secede from the Union? I doubt that. US states also have the right to secede but the central government does have the right to block secession.
As for Crimea, it never legally seceded from Russia. There was no referendum or vote by the people to do that.

Hi,
No doubt, it's important to know history, almost every nation did bad things in the past but I think it's also important to focus how now a nation treats negative historical events, whether admits wrongs. Apparently, American settlers commited atrocities to American Indians as well as to other nations but is it approved as right in modern American society? Why do you think "Now the Native Americans are 2nd class citizens in the US."? Is it possible now in the US anyone will go on streets shouting insults to Indians or any other minority with impunity?
At the same time modern Ukrainian radicals can freely march yelling like "Маскаляку на гиляку! - Hang Russians!" and make masked crashings, isn't it? Yeah, they are minorities and such elements can be found in any country but is it possible to behave openly like that in the USA without judging?

Originally Posted by rimz

"Маскаляку на гиляку! - Hang Russians!"

"Москаль" is not "a Russian". This word has a long history, but I'll just summarize the contemporary usage.
It's a person, as a rule a Russian but not necessarily, who thinks that Ukraine must not exist, or must be a part of Russia. Or thinks that Ukrainian nation or language do not exist, etc etc. That sort of person.

I have no idea about how serious about that phrase are ultra-nationalists, but ordinary people usually use it for trolling Russians.
And Ukrainian Russians can easily use it, too, by the way. Although, I think, most Russian-speaking people in Ukraine are identifying themselves as Ukrainians. It's difficult to tell. There is no "nationality" field in our passports and I don't remember this matter ever to come up in conversations.

Originally Posted by E-learner

"Москаль" is not "a Russian". This word has a long history, but I'll just summarize the contemporary usage.
It's a person, as a rule a Russian but not necessarily, who thinks that Ukraine must not exist, or must be a part of Russia. Or thinks that Ukrainian nation or language do not exist, etc etc. That sort of person.

IDK how you were able to come up with such description but here is what wiki says:

Моска́ль (укр. москаль, белор. маскаль, польск. Moskal) в украинском, польском, белорусском языках — шовинистическое национальное прозвище, употребляемое по отношению к русским
...Слово происходит от названия столицы России — Москвы, являясь таким образом изначально этнохоронимом.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Москаль

As you can see there is nothing about "Ukraine must not exist, or must be a part of Russia". And the word is, in fact, means "a Russian"

Originally Posted by hddscan

IDK how you were able to come up with such description but here is what wiki says:

I see, or hear if you wish, it around me. Maybe wiki knows better. It's your choice whom to believe.

Anyway, did you read all of this article? It has this:

Современное употребление

В современном украинском политическом лексиконе слово «москаль» и производные от него употребляются преимущественно с резко негативными коннотациями. При этом они применяются, как правило, к российским великодержавным шовинистам, сторонникам «русского мира», независимо от их этнической принадлежности.

Quite close to my definition, really. Including "независимо от их этнической принадлежности" part, of which I'm amazed because I was sure that no Russian Russian would know that.

Originally Posted by E-learner

Maybe wiki knows better.

Since this word is used from 17th century I think wiki knows better. "Modern political Ukrainian language" is just one of the ways to re-write history, as well as creating the whole "Ministry of truth" in Ukraine
The word is specifically used to offend all the Russians and no matter how "modern political Ukrainian language" sugarcoats it, the word does not change the meaning.

It's a perfect occasion for me to use that phrase

Originally Posted by E-learner

"Москаль" is not "a Russian". This word has a long history, but I'll just summarize the contemporary usage.
It's a person, as a rule a Russian but not necessarily, who thinks that Ukraine must not exist, or must be a part of Russia. Or thinks that Ukrainian nation or language do not exist, etc etc. That sort of person.

I have no idea about how serious about that phrase are ultra-nationalists, but ordinary people usually use it for trolling Russians.
And Ukrainian Russians can easily use it, too, by the way. Although, I think, most Russian-speaking people in Ukraine are identifying themselves as Ukrainians. It's difficult to tell. There is no "nationality" field in our passports and I don't remember this matter ever to come up in conversations.

Even that, matter of fact it's a call or threat to kill people with a different opinion. Those, who you think are 'Moskals', don't propose to erase from the Earth conterporary Ukraine or Ukrainians, they just think that the Ukrainian state and language were artificially created from ancient Rus states by its occupiers, that the name 'Ukraine' and many words came from Poland. There are such people living in Ukraine who see different their history and origin from official versions, why shoud they be threatened there?

Originally Posted by rimz

Even that, matter of fact it's a call or threat to kill people with a different opinion. Those, who you think are 'Moskals', don't propose to erase from the Earth conterporary Ukraine or Ukrainians, they just think that the Ukrainian state and language were artificially created from ancient Rus states by its occupiers, that the name 'Ukraine' and many words came from Poland.

"Opinion"? "They just think"?
Russia is eating Ukraine up bit by bit and they salute their idol for that.

Originally Posted by rimz

There are such people living in Ukraine who see different their history and origin from official versions, why shoud they be threatened there?

As I understand it, now we proceed from 'moskals' from Russia to 'moskals' from Ukraine.

Inside Ukraine, there is a tendency to call 'moskals' only people in high positions. For example, Simonenko, the leader of "communist" party (couldn't fight the urge to use quotation marks because, in fact, it's let's-join-the-Russian-Empier party).

As an example from another extreme -- those ordinary people with guns who now cooperate with the occupants do not get called 'moskals'. For the time being, at least. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by E-learner

Russia is eating Ukraine up bit by bit and they salute their idol for that.

I thought it's Ukrainian government cutting Ukraine off bit by bit
Донбасс без украинских пенсий - проиграют все? - BBC Russian
http://iz.com.ua/ukraina/60633-s-1-i...na-proezd.html
Облагаться налогом будет не вся пенсия, а только сумма превышения - Минфин | Украинская правда
В 2014 году инфляция составила 24,9% | Экономическая правда
В зоне АТО запретили пассажирские автобусные перевозки | Украинская правда
Выехать из оккупированных территорий можно будет по 7 направлениям | Украинская правда
В Украине с 1 января введен налог на нежилую недвижимость | Украинская правда
Тарифы на газ вырастут уже в первом квартале 2015 года | Украинская правда
ТВ: журналистов LifeNews избили в ходе факельного шествия в Киеве |

Originally Posted by E-learner

"Opinion"? "They just think"?
Russia is eating Ukraine up bit by bit and they salute their idol for that.

Actually there are many active voices condemning the "idol" haven't had drastic defend Donbass people. I believe most of them wish to be well to Ukraine and respect Ukrainians' freedom but they don't want violated freedom of Donbass.

As I understand it, now we proceed from 'moskals' from Russia to 'moskals' from Ukraine.

Inside Ukraine, there is a tendency to call 'moskals' only people in high positions. For example, Simonenko, the leader of "communist" party (couldn't fight the urge to use quotation marks because, in fact, it's let's-join-the-Russian-Empier party).

As an example from another extreme -- those ordinary people with guns who now cooperate with the occupants do not get called 'moskals'. For the time being, at least. Time will tell.

There is also a tendency to punish and "lustrate" non-consented quite non-democraticly, isn't there?
The point was about the danger to lives and helth of real people, those "banderas" much more dangerous for opposers in Ukraine than in Russian borders.

Originally Posted by rimz

Actually there are many active voices condemning the "idol" haven't had drastic defend Donbass people. I believe most of them wish to be well to Ukraine and respect Ukrainians' freedom but they don't want violated freedom of Donbass.

There is also a tendency to punish and "lustrate" non-consented quite non-democraticly, isn't there?
The point was about the danger to lives and helth of real people, those "banderas" much more dangerous for opposers in Ukraine than in Russian borders.

'don't want violated freedom of Donbass.'
What 'freedom of Donbass?' Are you saying that the Novorossiya territory is a 'democracy?'