Eastern Ukraine will continue to be governed from Kiev after UA military has restored order
Eastern Ukraine will manage to achieve autonomous status within Ukraine.
Ukraine will become a federal republic with more freedom for Eatern Ukraine
Eastern Ukraine will declare independence and become a new country or "breakaway republic"
Eastern Ukranie will be annexed to Russia following a military intervention by Russia
The area will descend into chaos, civil unrest and/or civil war for a long time to come
Ukrainian is already the second official state language in the subject of Russian Fedration - Crimean Republic along with Russian and Crimean Tatarian, according to new Crimean Constitution:Originally Posted by Eric C.
This means that any official document written in Ukrainian has the same legal power as a document written in Russian.
Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!
I do realize that you are twisting my words. Don't be silly, you did understand what I meant.
Moreover, do you really believe that those blood hungry nazi shall stop at Odessa or South-East? Remember "the previous nazi". And don't be amazed when even you will be forced to hide your relation with Russian culture via the language when your turn comes.
You mean Ukrainian language that even the majority of Ukraine population doesn't speak? How clever is that?
Also you might have forgot that your government didn't want to give Russian language even the regional status.
Besides, Crimea now has even 3 official languages: Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatarian. All three are totally equal. As a republic in a federation, they can have it now.
The results of the police investigation in Odessa:
All the victims were Ukrainian citizens.
All the victims were unarmed.
Most of the victims were 40-60 years old.
They only occupied the Trade Union building to seek shelter from the attacks of the Right Sector militia. The survivors were beaten with sticks and chains.
I'm still watching and waiting for the US to issue a strong condemnation of the massacre in Odessa. I'm only giving them till midnight, tonight. If they don't issue a strong condemnation for the massacre, then I'll be forced to conclude that they are the same as the animals that slaughtered those people.
It reminds me of what I read in American history - the invasion of the Indian nations and the massacres of the Indian people to create a new nation. And that happened less than 240 years ago - about the same time that Crimea became part of Russia under Catherine the Great. Have you ever read "Trail of Tears"? I talked to an American Indian and he told me that someday they would take their country back. And don't forget, the Mexican people still want California back. They've planted Mexican flags all over that state.
Oh, and you can add Hawaii to that list. It was taken out by a US military coup and the native Hawaiians want their land and government back too. The only response from the US was an official apology for stealing their island nation.
Tbh, I think America has more issues about controlling other country's land than Russia ever will.
I read a lot of the history of Ukraine (980's - 2014) when I was studying Russian history. The only times that Ukraine had a stable government was when it was occupied by another country (Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Austria, etc). They did setup 4 or 5 States on Ukrainian territory during the Bolshevik period but in every case they fell into chaos and anarchy. And what's happened since 1990 doesn't convince me that they can succeed. The word "Ukraine" means "borderland" and I think that's very appropriate.
Also, nobody could have explained it better than Basil77. It's not about official borders, it's about compatriots. I also read about the Baltic snowflakes, Russian southeastern Ukraine, Belarus, and northern Kazakhstan. Even the President of Belarus said that without Russian, Belarus would cease to exist. The only important borders are Russia and Russian compatriots. When foreigners attack the compatriots they are attacking Russia.
Special note - I consider the Russian media to be just as valid as the Western media (likely more valid in some ways). The only reason I link so much Western media is to appease pro-West members.
I hope the crisis can be resolved diplomatically but considering the attitudes of the interim government, the US, and the EU, sometimes I seriously doubt that it can. As always in history, Ukraine is falling again into chaos and anarchy. And it just proves that the US and the EU aren't able to create a stable government... except maybe a severely authoritarian dictatorship (disguised as a democracy) to rule the people by force. Does it remind anyone of Iraq? Saddam Hussein and the interim President probably have a lot in common. He led the Al-Anfal campaign and Yatsenyuk is leading the anti-Russian campaign. The real difference is that Hussein was sentenced to death for what he did.
Also, the US is supporting Yatsenyuk's anti-Russian campaign... against Ukrainian citizens. So the interim government, imo, totally is a Nazi organization.
Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.
Well done for having researched who died. So there were no people from Pridnestrovie that died? Ukrainian media said there were several....
As for Condemnation of Odessa.
Well, did you see the RT feature where they asked Americans where Ukraine was on the map? The most common answer was roughly in the region of Kazakhstan or Central Siberia. Others quite happily put it in India or Turkey.
As for Odessa - they probably think it's the name of a porn star or a restaurant. Or they recognise it from the title of a Robert Ludlum book.
Ignorance of geography, history and other cultures is really helpful in a country where the government wants to mislead the population in the way that the US does. Ten years into the Afghanistan, most Americans can't find Afghanistan on a map, or name even one neighbouring country. No doubt there'll soon be a new school shooting or dramatic court case to distract Americans.
So few Americans are open minded like yourself, and prepared to learn something new without projecting prejudice and propaganda onto it.
So no, the US won't offer condoleances. EU hasn't either, and at least in the EU people know where Odessa is located. The Swedish foreign minister tweeted something that suggested the burning was Russia's fault. He hates Russia with a vengeance that is bordering on obsession and has allegedly been in the pay of the CIA. William Hague (UK) is another serious Russia antagonist and also commented something snidy instead of offering condoleances.
Meanwhile apparently the UA embassy in Moscow received tons of flowers which they ignored!
Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution - Telegraph
At this point, an enraged crowd decided to march on the House of Trade Unions, located beside a park where pro-Russians had set up a small protest camp some weeks ago.
It occurs to me, it might be that they confused some peaceful protesters for those aggressive bastards with bats that they had previously been attacked by. If so, that's really a horrible tragedy, unbelievable by its awfulness and ridiculousness --- innocent people died while the real fascist bastards in masks with bats just ran away after committing the attack and killing some of the pro-Maidan activists.
Though, the whole picture is still very vague, and it would be great if the entire timeline of the Friday events was finally unveiled.
What government do you assume is mine?
The one you seem to be trying to justify.
Just in case, I'm not Ukrainian. And I'm not trying to justify any government, I'm trying to get the whole picture of what's been happening in that area, but I also have my own opinion of course, which is, people who try to keep their country up and running are prevalent over those trying to tear it to pieces.
And by the way, I see no point in discussing the Ukrainian interim government much at all, as they have an election in 3 weeks, and so the current one is going off the stage pretty soon.
The Ukrainian media released that news before the investigation was completed. They were all Ukrainians.
LOL @ porn star or restaurant! I needed something to make me feel better and that did. =) It's just that everything I was taught to hate, the US keeps doing. It's almost funny. Wherever I live I'll always have a house to live in but I feel homeless. Have you ever heard "Believe In Nothing" by the band "All That Remains"? It's how I feel. Well, maybe it's easy for older generations to hate on other countries but it's not easy for me or my friends. It's just pointless and I haven't seen anything in Russia to hate. Every time I watch a youtube about life in Russia, I wish I was there and the May Day parade was amazing. I'll be watching on May 9th too since it was the Red Army that saved everyone from the Nazis. The whole world should celebrate that.
Well, maybe old people in the US are all happy about living in a world full of violence and fear but that's not what we want for our future. And some of us don't want our kids growing up in a country they can't believe in.
So yeah, being open-minded is very important right now to save the world and make it a better place... for ourselves and for our kids, when we have them. I don't know anybody in my generation that isn't concerned about that.
And yeah, I haven't seen the UK response but I did see what Carl Bildt posted. He's no better than the Right Sector animals that slaughtered those people. It's 19:25 here now so the US has less than 5 hours left to issue a strong condemnation of the slaughter and offer their condolences to the families and friends of the victims. It's a life-changing event for us and we won't give them any more time.
Oh, and about the location of Ukraine, lol. I'm in a private school and our courses are obviously more advanced than what the public schools offer. I know some public school graduates couldn't even find Vermont in the US on a map, lol! I know something about every country on the European continent and can easily locate them on a map. I also know the history for some of the countries like Russia, India, the UK, China, Germany, Slovenia, Italy, and the Roman Empire. But the country I know the most history of is Russia and I've studied the topography too. I like really cold climates and especially countries that have lots of climate variety and hey, Russia has polar bears and palm trees! =D
I'm very happy to see that you're open-minded about the events. That deserves rep. And I'll be watching for more news on the investigations since there's so many unanswered questions. But I still have very serious issues with anyone that would set someone on fire and beat them to death when they try to escape. Even when one of my friends was slammed, I confronted the dude and demanded to know what was going down before I slammed him. That's the honorable way to fight.
They shoulda found a way to break into the building and confront them. Imo, torching and beating people isn't an option for humans.
But it's already 20:15 and Saturday night so I gotta bounce.
Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.
Попытка разобраться в произошедшем в Одессе невзирая на истерики с обеих сторон.
Прямо сейчас! - Что в действительности произошло в Одессе вчера...
Выводы по этому и прочим источникам:
- Боевики, участвовавшие в провокации на Греческой в целом действовали как толпа, но кем-то более-менее уверенно направлялись.
- Провокаторы с огнестрелом, разогревавшие толпу на Греческой, стреляли из-за спин и щитов милиции и координировали с ней свои действия.
- Нет указаний на то, что захватившие Дом Профсоюзов (и горевшие там) имеют отношение к провокации на Греческой.
- Наблюдения о странном поведении организаторов защиты ДП не вполне убедительны, но достойны внимания (баррикады внутри здания, препятствовавшие побегам при пожаре).
- В предположениях о странном характере возгораний ДП без настоящих экспертов не разобраться.
- Характер отравлений дымом жертв в ДП предполагает крайнюю токсичность этого дыма (нехарактерные позы угоревших и т.д.). Надо разбираться, что горело.
"Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?
Those are people who came from the barricaded central square (3-4 blocks down) within few hours after militaries arrived. Before all the morning a car with a loud-hailer was inviting people to the central square "to protect the city". At that very time the central square remained empty (though armed people were in buildings). That is swearing people in video are ALL unarmed people ready to interfere and abuse militaries. (Well, to be accurate there was one more such group several blocks from there.) Note that those militaries are known for giving up to the unarmed civilians with weapon and armored cars several days ago. Note also that those people are mostly hiding faces from camera and that they know and pay attention where the camera is.
There were real people from houses in the arcs and passages around but they didn't come close and were silent. Maybe they wanted to talk or whatever but didn't dare to interfere the group of loud and aggressive people.
These are people came to pro-ukr meeting in our city captured by foreign machine-gunners with unknown schedule that were already known for being ready to shoot and for taking several hostages. Bad place for making movie though, most people in the back didn't get to the camera.
Our city is about 200,000 total (165,000 voters).
Our police chief who organized the protection of our meeting now is among the hostages in Slaviansk if alive.
NOW (after beginning of ATO) all sane people here (independently of their political views) are silent and don't show themselves. All "events" you can see in video FROM NOW are freak show performances.
"Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?
I read somewhere that this is a bit of a "class" issue in Eastern Ukraine, and that fits with what it-ogo is saying. Essentially what I read hinted that the workers are more pro-Russia, and educated people are more pro Ukraine. I didn't quite understand why that would be, but it seems to match with the looks/behaviour of people I've seen on TV, the swearing etc, and the fact that it-ogo (pro-Ukraine) is well educated, English speaking etc.
Also - an age factor involved; younger people who paid attention in school 1992-today are slightly more likely to be pro Ukraine because of school curriculum etc, and just out of habit.
Then I read a long rant by a Russian nationalist who had somewhat conflicting themes. One of his main point was that Russian nationalists looked down a bit on Eastern Ukraine as "backwards", not very clever people, and a "Soviet mentality" (intended as an insult).
So his reasoning was "why should Russia take risks for such people". I wouldn't have any idea at all, but there are a lot of Soviet and communist flags showing on TV with the protestors. This type of outlook seems to be popular in Eastern Ukraine. The piece I read explained that this was because of the Donbass being a prestige project in the USSR with people moving there from all over.
Finally, the Russian nationalist seemed conflicted about who exactly in Ukraine is a "Slavic brother" and who isn't - and who needed to be liberated from what. I don't know a great deal about extreme nationalism in Russia so it was interesting to read that perspective.
And isn't it tragic how the free press is dead?
No Western paper will say who put the Union building in Odessa on fire.
For that we have to turn to the Russian media which may be truthful about a lot of things, but is not necessarily about lots of goings on inside of Russia.
Anyone who wants a truthful narrative about anything has to spend silly time online trying to read sources in different languages. Or else just give up and believe what you are told without questioning, or become a tin-foil conspiracy theorist who doesn't trust anyone.
The reason is obvious: educated people can have an idea of perspectives and real consequences of making our region a rogue state under the control of Russian militaries (there are three such states already so we can compare). Less educated people don't think about that, they just feel abused by Kiev's rebellion and say "why can't we do the same?"
That is the newest trend Russian press started to introduce step by step. Putin needs an excuse why he will not help "brothers" after so many encouragings and stimulations of "Russian spring".
They appeal to oldest men and women with the nostalgie about USSR. For some reason believe that Russia is something like old good USSR and the most active of them can make many noise as they don't need to work already.Iwouldn't have any idea at all, but there are a lot of Soviet and communist flags showing on TV with the protestors. This type of outlook seems to be popular in Eastern Ukraine. The piece I read explained that this was because of the Donbass being a prestige project in the USSR with people moving there from all over.
And who did? As far as I understand the fire started almost simultaneously in many places of the building. And the defenders intensively used Molotov's cocktails. We have no investigation results for now.No Western paper will say who put the Union building in Odessa on fire.
"Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?
Thanks for the interesting comments. I have some questions for you - a bit blunt so apologies in advance. Just ignore if you don't want to answer.
I can understand that Russia may not appeal to you, and that you are patriotic about being Ukrainian.
However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.
I am not being insulting or patronising, just comparing with other "language minorities" or border areas that I am familiar with. It's a complicated equation, which nationality people end up identifying with..... Clearly, in Eastern Ukraine - it varies from person to person.
I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason?
What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen? Would that be so bad? I am guessing that's how the miners, pensioners and others reason. Perhaps for you the economic aspect is irrelevant?
Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country, that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off? I mean, it's been 22 years, and Russia is doing a lot better, at least in the big cities. Whatever else you can say about Belarus, it's stable and everyone has a job. But Ukraine...?!
I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA.
My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway, Finland or Denmark, swallowing my pride. The nationalism is not an issue, since the countries are so similar culturally, neither is language. Particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard, I think I'd make the pragmatic choice. What am I missing here?
As for what Russia and Putin does - I think Putin has played the silence game for a very long time. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know to do.
And this situation is "damned if you do, damned if you don't" from the Russian perspective!
Particularly if, as Basil77 says, domestic opinion in Russia is now in favour of intervention and will think that Putin is a "pussy" if he doesn't.
Whereas in the international perspective, Putin would launch at the very least the start of the new Cold War, if not a real war.
it-Ogo, I guess the thought must have occurred to you:
What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in with troops on the ground?
Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other....
Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West within Ukraine, alt. emigrate...
Conspiracy theory happens when people get a narrative in the media that doesn't fit the real world. They know someone's hiding something but they don't know what. That's when imagination (and usually fantasy) takes over.
The best way to find real information in the media is keywords and teamwork. For example, my assignment was to help find a US condemnation of what happened in Odessa.
Step 1 - Find all US mainstream media (I have a list) using the search term "Odessa Russia fire".
Step 2 - Copy/paste each article and use search terms "Obama" and "Kerry".
Step 3 - Speed read each case. If something positive shows up, bookmark it.
The search took less than 30 minutes and I found the article. With just a few people working on 30 minute projects, you'd be amazed at how much relevant news we can collect in just one hour. Everyone contributes something.
For the first time in a long time there was a virtual media blackout, in the mainstream US media, for what happened in Odessa. But I did find a US condemnation of the event.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...ref=world&_r=1Secretary of State John Kerry said that the United States condemned violence by militant groups on all sides. “That includes the violence of anyone who lit a fire and caused the death of those 38 people or more in the building in Odessa,” he said.
I seriously doubt that President Putin will order an invasion unless he's convinced that the pro-Russians will lose if he doesn't. And it wouldn't be the first time a war was won without boots on ground.
Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.
I have no much sentiments about specific Ukrainian culture, history and national movement. For me as ethnic Russian, Russian culture is much closer. My position is a question of practice as Ukraine is the only chance for us here in Donbass for the decent life. Also I feel responcibility of Ukraine being its citizen for many years.
In Russia all these things are conserved and accepted by the population. In Ukraine we are trying to fight them. That is the difference. That and the people. The people are different and the difference grows.However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.
I told you above. I have been in Russia enough many times. The people in Ukraine (even here, in Donbass) are less cruel, more polite, with less xenophobia and more dignity. That was my feeling and that was my first step. The second step was my intellect, which says that Russia now goes VERY wrong way. And the final step was the last events.I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason?
If there were a Russia of my dream, I'd prefer it to any kind of Ukraine. But Russia is what it is.What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen.
The Maidan events are very complicated phenomenon and the definition "an undemocratic coup d'etat" is absolutely marginal in my eyes. The influence of foreign countries were much less, than Russian propaganda says, I think.Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country,
The previous government failed drastically in many areas and the rebellions (both Maidan and current disorders) are the consequences. We need urgent reformations and the spiritual raise of people from Maidan could help to conduct them.that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge
That is not true. In my knowledge most Russians are much worse "off" despite even of bigger average income (the difference in prices is much bigger). The quality of life in my feeling in Ukraine is better than in Russia in average. The Moscow is rich but the Russia is poor. Some people from Ukraine (including the ones I know) go to work to Moscow (not to the "equivalent cities") and despite of being regularly humiliated there, they like to live "like people in Moscow". Still we have no enough raw oil and gas to support Moscow level of life here. We must work and evolve to live better, no other way.and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off?
Ukraine started rebellion against corruption. Russia stroke our back invading Crimea then started and fuelled rebellion against Ukraine to distract everibody from Russia's actions in Crimea.I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA.
And what if they guaranteed much worse standards? Do you know how many Russian intellectuals found a job and new home in Kiev because of being pressed in Russia? And how many come regularly to do what can't be done in Russia? Ukraine is the only country for them to guarantee both political freedoms and their language. Probably that is the real reason why Putin attacked us. We present danger for his power because Ukraine is becoming more attractive for Russian intellectual and creative class than the very Russia. In return he stroke us with our poorest and least responsible but most aggressive class plus his militaries, propaganda machine and oil&gas money as he did before to Russian intelligencia.My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway or Finland, particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard. What am I missing here?
If Russia actually goes in I feel myself now evil enough to celebrate, as I am sure that it would sign the economical and organizational death penalty of Russia. Then... I am not a combatant neither a resistance organizer. I'll try to emigrate as far as possible to save my family and life from ongoing economical crash of Russia which promises to be very bloody.What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in. Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other.... Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West in Ukraine, alt. emigrate...
"Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?
Putin knows what to do quite well. He patiently expects for the looming failure of the currently lackadaisical “anti-terror operation” and successive toppling of the “interim government” by angry mobs in Kiev. Then,the newly fledged “right sector” junta will turn out to be responsible for real genocide in some region of Ukraine or other, and he will be able to liberate Novorussia from fascism without any risk of further sanctions and starting off WW3.As for what Russia and Putin does - I think Putin has played the silence game for a very long time. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know to do.
Зачем раздувать? Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?
"...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)
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