Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужас!

Yes . I really fell in love with Ukraine when I was there. Particularly Odessa, but Kiev too - the history of it.... I didn't notice that any of this was brewing underneath. Maybe naive of me. I have been planning to return in the future and hike Crimea at the same time.

Yes, and imagine the 9 May celebrations in the middle of this. Seems Nazism wasn't completely killed off by the Soviet Army. Nothing to celebrate for the Ukrainians.
Seems Ukraine has been taking "one step forward, two steps back" since 1992.

And poverty has to be fixed. Saw a woman in Odessa on TV - she said her salary was 92 USD a month. In Europe today. It's not on. I'd rather take double or triple that in roubles if I was her, EVEN if I didn't like Putin or Russia. I'd just pretend he wasn't there. She's got to eat and heat her house in the winter! And Nazis burning buildings in Odessa full of Jews. It's beyond disgusting.

If Russia was planning to intervene all along, then I think they should do it BEFORE more people are killed or buildings destroyed.

If Russia is NOT planning to intervene, I think they should say that VERY clearly so the "pro-Russians" know where they stand and adjust their expectations accordingly.
Right now, if things don't go their way, the leaders may end up spending the rest of their lives in prison.

Originally Posted by Hanna

If Russia was planning to intervene all along, then I think they should do it BEFORE more people are killed or buildings destroyed.

If Russia is NOT planning to intervene, I think they should say that VERY clearly so the "pro-Russians" know where they stand and adjust their expectations accordingly.

Maybe not my business, but I think Russia could gain some respect from the Ukrainian people if the Russian army got in AND helped the Ukrainian army put down all the illegally armed individuals on the streets, AND then just quietly stepped off the scene. What are chances that if it intervenes, things will go that way?...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Maybe not my business, but I think Russia could gain some respect from the Ukrainian people if the Russian army got in AND helped the Ukrainian army put down all the illegally armed individuals on the streets, AND then just quietly stepped off the scene. What are chances that if it intervenes, things will go that way?...

Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

And then, just for the record, ANY nation that doesn't like anything about Russia can do the same to Russia, right? Sorry, but those people who "demand" that are not very smart, to put it VERY mildly.

On the latest Ukrainian events, I repeat it one more time, as long as I'm not sure who started the sh*t, I cannot hold any firm opinion, but even at this point I can say the following: any innocent person who died in that conflict is a big loss and horrible tragedy, BUT any attacker with a weapon who used it to bring in violence is not even worth talking about him, and in fact the more of such individuals were wiped off, the better.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

And then, just for the record, ANY nation that doesn't like anything about Russia can do the same to Russia, right? Sorry, but those people who "demand" that are not very smart, to put it VERY mildly.

On the latest Ukrainian events, I repeat it one more time, as long as I'm not sure who started the sh*t, I cannot hold any firm opinion, but even at this point I can say the following: any innocent person who died in that conflict is a big loss and horrible tragedy, BUT any attacker with a weapon who used it to bring in violence is not even worth talking about him, and in fact the more of such individuals were wiped off, the better.

Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.
And don't put analogy with Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Middle-Asian stans (except Kazakhstan) and Caucasus, please. Baltics were always considered as "special snowflakes" even in Soviet Union. Despite some disputable cities, like Narva, no one here consider, say, Estonians our compatriots. But most questions with Baltic countries were succesfully solved in the last years, borders officially marked, etc. Ukraine is completley different case.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.

And I guess the same goes for the other 13 former soviet republics, right? That's an amazingly wrong attitude, you should fix it! It's the artificially created states like the USSR, Checzho-Slovakia, Yugoslavia etc. that is to be considered "the joke". Luckily, most of those are history now. And I don't get you folks, you live in the biggest country in the world and still look for expansion, WHAT FOR???

Originally Posted by Eric C.

And I guess the same goes for the other 13 former soviet republics, right? That's an amazingly wrong attitude, you should fix it! It's the artificially created states like the USSR, Checzho-Slovakia, Yugoslavia etc. that is to be considered "the joke". Luckily, most of those are history now. And I don't get you folks, you live in the biggest country in the world and still look for expansion, WHAT FOR???

You guess wrong. This is right only for Belarus, the south-eastern part of Ukraine and the northern part of Kazakhstan wich are historically and mentally our compatriots. And yes, North Caucasus, including Chechnya is considered aliens. You are right about USSR was artificially created. All tensions between former USSR republics happen because of artificially drawn borders by Lenin and Stalin.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.
And don't put analogy with Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Middle-Asian stans (except Kazakhstan) and Caucasus, please. Baltics were always considered as "special snowflakes" even in Soviet Union. Despite some disputable cities, like Narva, no one here consider, say, Estonians our compatriots. But most questions with Baltic countries were succesfully solved in the last years, borders officially marked, etc. Ukraine is completley different case.

I get it now. So, it's a psychological and mental issue. " you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke." So, it was okay when Yanukovych was in power and that when Tymoshenko stole money and made sure that Putin had a cushy deal - that was okay because, in essence, Ukraine was somewhat of a de facto Kremlin government? Right? Thus, corruption, killing Ukrainian citizens that don't worship the Kremlin is justified to maintain the status quo and make sure that Ukraine steps in line of what the Kremlin wants. That makes sense.

deleted. L.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

Sad to admit, he has been quiet for far too long. However, it's understandable. To start WW3 or not to start WW3? A tough question. Figuratively speaking, Russian speaking population in Ukraine is taken hostage. The condition - "Step into the shi~ we've prepared for you, or they shall burn. And when you do, we'll make you pay and apologize for another several decades. Sincerely yours, western friends."
A clever plan. Clever and inhuman.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Sad to admit, he has been quiet for far too long. However, it's understandable. To start WW3 or not to start WW3? A tough question. Figuratively speaking, Russian speaking population in Ukraine is taken hostage. The condition - "Step into the shi~ we've prepared for you, or they shall burn. And when you do, we'll make you pay and apologize for another several decades. Sincerely yours, western friends."
A clever plan. Clever and inhuman.

You do realize you're basically saying people in Ukraine get burned for speaking Russian? How clever is that???

I don't think the attitude for Russian speaking people in Ukraine pretty much differs from that for Ukrainian speaking people in Russia. But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

Ukrainian is already the second official state language in the subject of Russian Fedration - Crimean Republic along with Russian and Crimean Tatarian, according to new Crimean Constitution:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

11 апреля 2014 года на внеочередном заседании Госсовета была утверждена Конституция Республики Крым . Конституция состоит из 10 глав и 95 статей, её основные положения схожи со статьями Основного закона РФ. Согласно новой Конституции, Республика Крым (РК) является демократическим, правовым государством в составе Российской Федерации и равноправным субъектом РФ. Источником власти в РК является её народ — часть многонационального народа РФ. Республика Крым имеет три государственных языка — русский, украинский и крымско-татарский. Высшим должностным лицом является глава республики, который избирается депутатами Госсовета Крыма сроком на пять лет и не может замещать эту должность более двух сроков подряд^[20].

This means that any official document written in Ukrainian has the same legal power as a document written in Russian.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

You do realize you're basically saying people in Ukraine get burned for speaking Russian? How clever is that???

I do realize that you are twisting my words. Don't be silly, you did understand what I meant.
Moreover, do you really believe that those blood hungry nazi shall stop at Odessa or South-East? Remember "the previous nazi". And don't be amazed when even you will be forced to hide your relation with Russian culture via the language when your turn comes.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I don't think the attitude for Russian speaking people in Ukraine pretty much differs from that for Ukrainian speaking people in Russia. But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

You mean Ukrainian language that even the majority of Ukraine population doesn't speak? How clever is that?
Also you might have forgot that your government didn't want to give Russian language even the regional status.
Besides, Crimea now has even 3 official languages: Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatarian. All three are totally equal. As a republic in a federation, they can have it now.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Also you might have forgot that your government didn't want to give Russian language even the regional status.

What government do you assume is mine?