Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine).

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

Originally Posted by edvalais

I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine).

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

They were arrested for their speeches about possibility of federalization of Ukraine which maybe the only way to prevent a break up of the country. Dobkin was going to take part in presidential elections and his arrest is a means of eliminating a candidate who has a strong backing from people from the Eastern part of the country. So as you can see the methods of the new Kiev's power are quite undemocratic not to mention about their alliance with odious "Right sector" and their indulgence to brigandish actions of some armed groups from the Maidan.
And you are wrong that no Russian criticizes Russia on this forum. I don't do this in this branch of the forum, because this branch is devoted to the situation in Ukraine. You can read a lot of critics towards Russia in another branch of the forum, devoted to discussing democracy in Russia.
There is another consideration about self-critics. The events in Ukraine showed to Russian people what horrible things unbridled protests can lead to. Suddenly many people realized that it's better to have stability under authoritarian power than chaos of anarchy. So the Ukrainian Maidan actually delivered a very destructive blow on the movement of protest against authoritarism in Russia.

Actually professor Zubov was not sacked. Here is the proof http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/m.226186.html

Originally Posted by edvalais

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

Ed, I think you are sitting on some rather high horses here....!

Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?
What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually.

I don't think you used this site very long. Many Russians here are extremely critical of many things. Some people here are completely anti-establishment, in Russia and in general. Another thing is, there is a time and place to dish out the worst dirt on your country, and maybe it's in a forum for language learners. Have you checked Livejournal, the Russian sector?

Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him. It's also the issue how you represent your country to strangers. Maybe you don't start with serving up all the dirt to begin with. The site is for people who want to learn about Russia.
Most of us already know the negatives, from media.

Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (4 to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

Originally Posted by edvalais

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

Well, Russia has a different experience and view on some of the phenomenons you discuss.
I don't support the idea that anything Western is necessarily better. Better in the West, maybe. But better for Russia? That's for the Russians to decide. I don't care and it's not my business.

Plus governing Russia is completely different challenge than even the UK. Can't apply the same logic - besides, how democratic is the UK really, if you sincerely think about it. Two near identical parties, and plenty of stuff going on that everyone knows the majority wouldn't agree with, if they had any real influence.

I agree with your view of Russian apathy about corruption. But it's easy for me to judge it, or get worked up, coming from one of the least corrupt countries in the world. I try not to, even if it disgusts me.

Not super interested in Olympics so I didn't read the thread, but it more or less worked pretty well and no terrorist attack, so I guess it's a success.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (4 to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

I'm also not too young, 45 soon and I served in Afghanistan so I can remember hearing explosions of jet-proppelled missiles and I still remember the sign "Made in USA" written on a stabilizer of one of them that luckily hadn't exploded. So tell your stories to someone else. Russian people know much better than you from the experience of two Chechen wars how destructive separatism can be.
As for Crimean affairs I don't see any ground for destructive protests of local people against joining RF. There is no language, religion or historical ground for it.
I say more. If the US had not poked their nose into inner Ukrainia bussiness if they hadn't finance Maidan, if they hadn't press toward inclusion Ukraine in NATO, there would be no separatism in Crimea at all.

Now, about Zubkov. I don't know the level of your Russian, but I can see it is not high enough to understand that there is no actual confirmation of his being sacked in your excerpt.
So let me translate it to you:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?
(-What way were you informed about your sacking?)

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.
(-A very usual way. I was said to write an application to leave the service on my own will, or to wait till they will sack me according to an article in the law. I answered that I would write nothing myself, let them sack me the way they wish. And I am called to the prorector on tomorrow, apparently to discuss this matter.)

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?
(- Did they explain to you, that your sacking is connected with your article in "Vedomosti"?)

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.
(- They said me starightforward that everything's about this article. But they didn't tell me any detail. Well, everybody understood everything).

So, as you see, the man, according to his own words was put under pressure, but for the moment when this interview was taken, his was not sacked yet. And he wasn't sacked later. Actually he wasn't sacked at all, wich was writen in my prooflink. Moreover, we know that the professor was put under pressure only from his own words. So, it's for you to decide whom to belive. I belive to the facts, and the facts say that he was not sacked.

I'm sorry to say it to you, but the rest of your post shows that it's you who is brainwashed.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....
1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions? Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are?
2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option. Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair.
Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

I don't know which was finnier. The picture or your reaction, LMAO!

Originally Posted by edvalais

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

Tbh, I've never seen anything deleted (censored) here that wasn't irrationally hostile or disrespectful. Btw, I read an article yesterday in Nezavisimaya Gazeta that wasn't very flattering to President Putin or the State Duma. The author was speaking out for equality and human rights in Russia. No, I honestly don't see the Russian people as being brainwashed and I don't believe they're any more apathetic than Americans. There are people in both countries that get disgusted with government or just don't care.

But sometimes people are so concerned with the differences between 2 countries that they can't see the similarities. Russia and the US are strong allies with strong economic ties. And no, I wouldn't feel any more threatened or restricted living in Russia than I do living in the US. Have you seen the list of the 50 most dangerous cities in the world in 2013? There are 4 US cities in that list but no Russian cities are listed. From Business Insider:
Most Dangerous Cities In The World - Business Insider

And don't forget, allies are friends and friendship is based on mutual respect and understanding. My 2 favorite countries on the European continent are Russia and France and I wouldn't want to change either one.

Originally Posted by Hanna

What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually.
Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him.

LOL! It's always a possibility that anyone that speaks out too much could be picked up by Homeland Security. I mean, they already know how often we brush our teeth and they can detain US citizens indefinitely without a trial. So yeah, I really don't believe it could be any worse in Russia. Anyway, I think it's very interesting that our country hates what it calls "dictators" and also hates people that speak out against things the government does - I think that's called a double standard, LOL!

@ the OP:
Russia has a lot invested in Crimea which, imo, gives them the right to get involved in the Ukrainian crisis. The US/EU won't lose anything if Crimea does join the Russian Federation... except maybe the possibility of building new NATO bases. Tbh, I don't really see Russia as any threat to the west so I think the NATO buildup needs to stop. The western powers already said they don't have "the appetite" for a military confrontation with Moscow.

But despite NATO reconnaissance aircraft patrolling the Polish and Romanian borders and U.S. naval forces preparing for exercises in the Black Sea, Western powers have made clear that, as when ex-Soviet Georgia lost territory in fighting in 2008, they have no appetite for risking turning the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War into a military conflict with Moscow.

Ukraine forms new defense force, seeks Western help - chicagotribune.com

So why extend hostilities over something that's inevitable. Tbh, I don't think they will... at least, not for very long. The countries are already too dependent on each other economically to risk any serious sanctions. It's like dominoes - if one country falls so will the others. How many Senators wanna lose their new homes or yachts over something they can't change? Obviously not very many since the visa-bans had to be imposed by Executive Order. Obama wouldn't have done that if Congress was backing him up.
Anyway, here's the latest news I've seen on the Crimean situation:
West prepares sanctions as Russia presses on with Ukraine takeover - chicagotribune.com
http://www.rg.ru/2014/03/14/lavrov-site.html

It's Saturday and 04:38 in Moscow right now. The Referendum is only a day away.

EDIT:
Some more interesting news. Russia downed a US surveillance drone over Crimea:
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-in...180430584.html

Originally Posted by edvalais

Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes.

I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.
Did you read about the Russian baby that was abused by the American homosexual couple that adopted him? Google "Mark Newton" or "Peter Truong". Do 3 year olds really beat themselves to death? Google "Maxim Kuzmin".
Or maybe the 7 year old that was beaten to death by his adoptive parents in Texas? Google "Ivan Skorobogatov". Or maybe the 6 year old that was beaten to death? His adoptive mother was only charged with involuntary manslaughter. Google "Alex Pavlis".
It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.

Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

You're kidding, right? If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence. Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.

В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

...It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

You express much more eloquently what I was trying to say!

It may seem that I'm being "anti-Russian", but I'm in fact trying to be "pro-children". I would much rather that a British orphan was adopted by a properly-vetted Russian couple than remain in care in the UK. (There have been scandals in UK children's homes too.)

I'm also not being "anti-Russian" when I criticise politics in your country - I'm "pro-democracy". I equally deplore what's happening in Guantanimo etc. Democracy should have no nationality.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?

Everyone has an opinion but there's no proof that the adoption ban was a response to the Magnitsky Act. But there's proof that it could have been a response to the abuse and deaths. I could be wrong but my conclusion is based on what I know about it... and that's not very much.
I know almost nothing about the Magnitsky act or the people who were affected by it so I can't comment on that.

Originally Posted by edvalais

You're kidding, right? If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence. Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.

В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

It's good that the authorities are investigating the abuse in that orphanage. But it happens in other orphanages too.
Btw, I'm happy you feel as strongly about this issue as I do. I had a friend that was abused by his adoptive family. They moved so I don't know where he is now but I'm sure he's not happy. That shouldn't be happening to any kid anywhere.
I've never been in an orphanage and I didn't watch the video in the link. But yeah, I have heard about them and I know I wouldn't want to be in one... or be adopted. It sounds kinda scary either way.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

I got dragged into a thread about the adoptions by a friend at another site. I didn't read all the articles and I refuse to watch videos about that topic. If there are hundreds and thousands of good adoptions then that makes me happy. And I agree orphanages should be a safe place for kids with people that really care about them. I'm not a girl or a mom but I'm not a monster either. It disturbs me to hear about the bad things that happen. Kids should be protected and safe.

Очень хорошее видео!

I'm sorry but this whole thing confuses me immensely. What the hell has it to do with the US, run by people who desecrated the indigineous population of America in their pursuit of claiming land they had no right to for one thing. Secondly, let the people decide as all persons concerned have a point of view. Let it go to a vote. What do the people want, not the US, ignore them, they still have ghettos in the South despite all their bravado in the 1990's about aparteid, so tell them to clean up their own garden......

@EdValais
I really don't know why you consider it necessary to put yourself in judgment over Russia. It's really not that horrible, and it is certainly not in any way a threat against Europe.

Russia has significantly less people in prison than the USA.
Russia has not been caught out spying on the world
Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions.
Russia doesn't have drone programs to assasinate people it doesn't like in foreign countries.
Russia has no history of invading one country after another for phony reasons, in order to gain control of natural resources and strategic locations.
Russia doesn't have ~100,000 soldiers stationed in Europe and over 250 military bases across the globe, including places where they are very clearly not wanted.
Russian's lives have improved over the last decade, compare with the USA.

Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it.

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

Originally Posted by edvalais

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

"Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.

And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons.

So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

Originally Posted by Hanna

"Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.

And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons.

So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

Maks -

I could have really fun listing Putin's other crass and tactless comments, but here's just one to illustrate how he sometimes conducts himself abroad. And this matters - when people think of Russia, they think of Putin.

Get circumcised, angry Putin tells reporter | World news | The Guardian

Originally Posted by edvalais

Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it.

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

Originally Posted by SergeMak

I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

Zubov didn't compare Putin with Hitler - in fact he is very careful to distinguish the two:

"Гитлер и Путин – это совершенно разные люди, у них совершенно разные цели и устремления. Но то, что события внешней политики конца 30-х годов в жизни Германии и в современной жизни России схожи, очень похожи институционально – это так. Я в этом абсолютно уверен и готов доказать это как профессионал."

Your comment about Zubov's age (which suggests a rather unpleasant attitude towards pensioners) doesn't seem to advance the argument, therefore let's put it quietly in the bin.

You think Zubov will return to work on Monday - I don't. We can't both be right. Let's wait and see.