Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
Quote Originally Posted by TronDD
I was refering to rights in my statement you quoted. A group cannot violate anyone else's rights in the same way an individual cannot.
It can and does in every society.
I am talking about what is correct (right vs. wrong). Yes, bad things can and do happen but that does not make them correct. I think we are arguing about different things.

Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
Quote Originally Posted by TronDD
One always has rights. Regardless of whether or not they can, or choose to excercise them.
So long as "one" is alone or the society grants them.
A correct society grants Man his rights and protects them. They are deemed inalienable.

Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
Quote Originally Posted by TronDD
Groups are not seperate entities from individuals. Groups are made up of individuals and groups exist only because individuals have the right to associate with others.
Separate. Groups do consist of individuals, but their existence creates a new many-to-many relationship, which is ignored by the human rights doctrine. I have said that the doctrine works when the many-to-many is uniform and the society is stable, then the weaker one-to-many or even one-to-one relationship is OK.
What is the "human rights doctrine"? We may be arguing on different pages again. I support and am speaking from the viewpoint of laissez-faire Capitalism which is based around the rights of Man. I don't see how what you are saying about ignoring group relationships is part of that system.


Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
Quote Originally Posted by TronDD
A criminal is a different situation. When you violate the rights of others (commit a crime) you forfeit some of your rights (freedom, or even your life in the case of capital punishment).
Problem is, you need a society to make sure a criminal shall forfeit his rights. And that creates a right of a society to suspend or revoke a right of an individual.
That is the roll of goverment. So, yes, I can see your point that society, the group, has power over the individual in this case. But only government is given that power by the people governed by it, that includes the criminals. If you do not wish to be governed by it, you are free to leave that nation.

Within that society, no group has any more or less rights than any individual or other group.

Tim.