Thread: Языковая обстановка в Латвии и др.

even though at least 40% seem to speak Russian as their mother tongue. (no signs, info etc)

. Russians are only ~25% of the population. The rest of non-Latvians are Ukrainians, Belarussians, Poles, Lithuanians, Jews, Roma, etc...
Do we need to make these languages official too?

Nulle, I am not going to argue with you about this. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion and there is no point both of us wasting our time on a fruitless argument.

I am sure there are reasonably reliable sources of information about how many people in Latvia speak what languages. In Riga, Daugavpils and Liepaja that I have visited, I found it was half or more speaking Russian. Obviously it's a large percentage in the country as a whole, whatever the actual figure is.

I think Latvia will make itself increasingly worse if it continues with its current language policy. As it is, not a lot of people in Europe know much about Latvia. It's really mostly neighbouring areas like Scandinavia etc that really take an interest, but as Latvias role in the EU etc grows, more and more people will take an interest. I think it's a great country in all other respects.

Latvia happens to be a neighbouring country of mine, and I wish it all the best, and success to everyone living there; Latvians and Russian speakers alike.

Look at all modern & normal bilingual countries and you'll see what I mean. Switzerland, Canada, Finland, Belgium, United Kingdom and many more in the EU and elsewhere.

Then look at the situation in countries that choose to discriminate or surpress minorities within their borders. They are the poor and unsuccessful countries that are torn apart by conflicts and never move forward as a nation because people are too narrow minded to move on from whatever historical or cultural differences they have.

Which type of country would you like yours to be?

I do not really want my country to be like Belgium or Canada - each is basically two countries that are holding together with a duck tape.
Two regions in which many people do not understand other region's language.
I don't want that my country splits in something like Latvia and RusLatvia.

It seems history has given you no choice! It's very obvious to anyone who visits this country that there are two language groups of near equal size.

If you don't want to do the politically correct option - accept reality and be a bilingual country - then you have two other options:

1) Throw out the Russian speakers.
2) Somehow force them to speak to Latvian.

Both are a historical reciept for trouble, complaints, unrest and worst case, war!

It COULD work with SMALL minorities (less than 10% perhaps, there are examples of that.) But with a large minority I doubt that it will. In Sweden, we forced the minorities to speak Swedish. But that was small minorities and this was 75-300 years ago. They are still very angry about it and there are lots of problems related to that.

And has it occurred to you that to most visitors, the situation is very interesting and your language skills are impressive? It will only enrich Latvia! What harm does it do? Your language is still there and developing.

Also, most Russians seem to have a very reasonable view of the situation. Most, including older people are trying to speak Latvian as far as I can tell. It's lucky these people are so pliable.... Look at Spain etc where they practically take to arms because someone forgot to put up a bilingual street sign somewhere...

Pissing off Russia doesn't seem like a good idea either. They are next door to you and getting back on their feet, while the USA is on the other side of the Atlantic and going broke as we speak.

It just seems to ME that you have everything to win by being a bit more accommodating to these people, but quite a lot to lose by taking a rigid position. Not to mention the fact that it's the decent thing to do.

What harm does it do

Everyone will be FORCED to learn Russian to a good level, but Latvian will be marginalized again - just like in Soviet times.
People remember this "enrichment" too well.

Pissing off Russia doesn't seem like a good idea either.

Russia (at least under Putin's reign) will only be satisfied when Baltic states are part of it again.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's easy to judge people now - back then, they simply did not know.

Simply did not know!! Do you understand what are you talking? How can one ‘’do not know something’’ while shooting other people? How can one do not understand that he is killing a nation without any reason? How a man can point to other man’s head with a gun and do not understand what he is going to do? If these Russians really didn’t understood that they are killing people, then I just can come to conclusion that maybe they all were some kind of psychopaths!? . Haven’t you ever though that god gave brains to a human so that he would understand what he is doing?
And I still can’t believe that you do not stop trying to find excuse for these killings… there is no excuse for that.

And there was no need for you to start explaining how this thread has been started. I have enough brains so that I would understand it by myself.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Your language is still there and developing.

I again have to correct your mistakes Latvian belongs to the Baltic branch of the Indo-European language family the same way as Lithuanian language. Both these languages retains many features of Proto Indo-European now lost in other Indo-European languages. These languages are almost as old as Latin language and they are still used in everyday life how you know So, do you really think that it still needs improvements and that Latvian is still developing language?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Also, most Russians seem to have a very reasonable view of the situation. Most, including older people are trying to speak Latvian as far as I can tell. It's lucky these people are so pliable....

Look, I‘ll tell you one thing I guess as you don‘t know that in Poland is such a town, which is located not so far from Lithuanian border called Punskas and about 93 per sent of it‘s people are real ethnic Lithuanians. This spring I was there and guess if I saw in this town a sign where would be written in Lithuanian. Or do you think that Polish people are writting Vaistinė (the chemist‘s shop) instead of Apteka even though mass of people living there are Lithuanians? The answer is NO. But these Lithuanians somehow manage to talk fluently both in Lithuanian and Polish languages doesn‘t matter if they are old or young. And there is no ploblems between Lithuanians and Polish because Lithuanians simply respect the fact that official language of Poland is Polish. So, in my mind, it is Russians who, first of all, should start respecting laws and constitution of Latvia, and get used to the idea that Latvian is official language, but not intentionally refuse to speak in Latvian even though they are living there for decades. And if they still do not agree with that, then they just simply can leave this country, but as you see most of them are not thinking about doing it, so we can come to conclusion that it is much better for them to live in Latvia (because welfare there is much better than in beloved Russia). And, if the fact that some of them initially are refusing to speak Latvian, you call discrimination of Russian people, then maybe you should take a dictionary and find out what the word ‘‘discrimination‘‘ means.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Pissing off Russia doesn't seem like a good idea either. They are next door to you and getting back on their feet, while the USA is on the other side of the Atlantic and going broke as we speak.

So now Baltic states should became afraid of the fact that Russia is our neighbour while USA is on the other side of the ocean and we should start making all wishes of Russia as if we would be some kind of golden fish???

By the way, if you are so open minded person, and people from Latvia and other Baltic countries are so narrow minded then maybe you can explain why all these ex USSR countries have such a negative attitude towards Russia??? Oh I forgot maybe Belarus and North Korea really like this country So, really how it happened that all neighbours of Russia became so bad, but just only Russia is so innocent as an ‘‘Angel‘‘?

Please, next time try to think what are you writing because I don‘t want to keep on arguing all the time with you, I‘m already bored of it.
PS. I just can‘t stand when I have to read such nonsences about Baltic countries.

Originally Posted by nulle

Everyone will be FORCED to learn Russian to a good level, but Latvian will be marginalized again - just like in Soviet times.
People remember this "enrichment" too well.

Russia (at least under Putin's reign) will only be satisfied when Baltic states are part of it again.

I completely agree with you

Ok, maybe I was too harsh. I do not think that russians should be discriminated against - and maybe Russian language should have greater status.
But there should be a discussion about it - Russians should not simply demand "their rights" or threaten to "show Latvians their place" - Latvians are majority and should be respected (If someone does not want that , then maybe they should move to place where Russians are majority (Russia, for example)).
Osipov and Linderman are starting this referendum as a retaliation or revenge against "latvian nazis" - that is not a good approach at all.
(There was attempt to start a referendum to phase out Russian schools in 12 years - but it failed - did not get enough signatures).
Those who say that Russian should have greater status - OK - how much greater?
What should we do?
Divide this country like Belgium? (Bad idea)
Ask good knowledge of BOTH official languages from everyone? (a lot of young Latvians have poor Russian skills as it is not a mandatory subject in school anymore)
Make 100% of information available in both languages everywhere (double paperwork - more expensive + in service sector Russian already is de facto official language).
Majority of Latvians will not agree that Russian language should regain all the privileges it got in Soviet times unconditionally - so some compromise should be made.

The rest of non-Latvians are Ukrainians, Belarussians, Poles, Lithuanians, Jews, Roma, etc...

So... given the choice between either:

A. Make ALL of them "official" languages

...or...

B. Make Russian an "official" language, but give no such "official" status to Polish, Ukrainian, Rom, etc.

...I think the logical answer is:

C. Keep Latvian as the country's one and only "official" language.

Why should Russian speakers get special recognition simply because they're more numerous than the other non-Latvian-speaking minorities? Russian might be a minority language within Latvia, but globally, the survival of Russian is not in the slightest danger. (As an American, I feel the same way about the status of Spanish in the U.S. -- Spanish has official status everywhere south of Texas, except for Brazil and a few Caribbean countries like Jamaica and Haiti. So why should Spanish speakers enjoy government-funded conveniences that aren't necessarily available to speakers of Cantonese or Persian or Hmong?)

Having said that, I admit that I don't know what Latvia's exact language policy is in practical terms -- I mean, what are the actual, real-world consequences of having "official minority language" recognition, or not having such recognition?

From Googling, I get the impression that at present, Russian-speakers in Latvia can send their children to tax-funded public schools where they spend the entire day learning all their lessons IN RUSSIAN, not Latvian. Perhaps they might spend an hour each day learning Latvian as a "second language," but their lessons in mathematics, history, science, etc., are given IN RUSSIAN.

If I were an ethnic Latvian, I think I would find it very objectionable to know that my tax money was being used to educate other people's children in the language of a foreign country, instead of Latvian! Of course, if Latvia's Russian-speaking minority want their kids to speak Russian, they can teach them Russian at home, or send them to private Russian-speaking schools paid out of their own Russian pockets. But if they want a free public education for their children, I don't believe they have any "right as a minority" for that бесплатное образование to be in a language other than Latvian.

Of course, I recognize that young children can learn a second/foreign language more easily than older children, so to me a rational education policy would be to "phase out" (= "to gradually eliminate") the Russian-language public schools over a period of 15-20 years.

Initially, the early primary grades (say, kindergarten through second grade) would be taught in Latvian only, grades 3-6 would be in a mix of Latvian and Russian, and grades 7 and above would be mostly in Russian. In later years, kindergarten to sixth grade would be in Latvian only, but grades 7 and above would use a mix of Latvian and Russian, etc.

For Russian speakers who are already adults, the policies would have to be different. Assuming that Russians are taxed by the Latvian government whether they speak Latvian or not, they have a right as Latvian taxpayers to expect some basic and absolutely necessary government services to be available in Russian. This could mean that the government prints official documents in Russian as well as Latvian; or it could mean that the government pays for the cost of a translator to assist Russian speakers with Latvian documents. (In my view, the "right" to have these documents available in Russian is not a "natural human right"; rather it's a justified entitlement that is created by the fact that the Russians pay their taxes to the Latvian government, just like Latvians do.)

However, I don't think that the government is obliged to pay for the translation in ALL cases -- there may be some contexts where it is reasonable to ask that either the Russian pay out-of-pocket, or that the Russian-speaking community create its own private fund to assist low-income Russians with translation services.

For example, if a Russian is a defendant in a criminal case, then he has an absolute right, in my opinion, to a Russian-speaking lawyer and/or courtroom translators whose fees are paid by the Latvian state if necessary. This is the cost of running a judicial system in a civilized country.

But if a Russian is simply buying a car and the official tax/license paperwork happens to be in Latvian, then the cost for translating the paperwork should come out of the Russian's own pocket (or the pockets of other Russian speakers doing volunteer pro bono work for their community) and he has no "right" to demand that Latvian-speaking taxpayers subsidize the cost of the translation in order to make the process of car-buying more convenient for him.

From Googling, I get the impression that at present, Russian-speakers in Latvia can send their children to tax-funded public schools where they spend the entire day learning all their lessons IN RUSSIAN, not Latvian.

Since ~2005 official policy is to have 60% of lessons in Latvian and 40% in Russian.
Tax-funded higher education is available in Latvian only (and English for foreign exchange students).
And this approach is working - knowledge of Latvian is increasing each year...

Having an offcial second language simply means that the citizen can get service from the state in either of the official languages, that official signs on the roads, warning signs etc are in both languages and that food and medicine has labels in both languages. It's also possible to have two official language, but one with a lower status, i.e. less service etc in that language.

It's really just to assure that people can do the basic necessities in their native country, without learning another language. Not everybody has the brains etc to do that. It's actually pretty dangerous if people can't read labels on medicine, if they can't communicate with the state, or they eat food they are allergic to because they couldn't read the label. Plus, it sends a message to the group "you are acknowledged", "we care about your wellbeing".

In reality, in most bilingual countries, the majority of people - certainly all smart ones - can speak the majority language.

I am certainly not saying I think it's ok for Russian speakers to walk around with an arrogant attitude to Latvia, Latvian people or language. They should definitely learn it. But there might be people who are not very clever, don't have a lot of opportunity to practice Latvian because they live in a Russian speaking area etc.

Also, I am not saying that all Latvian people should have an obligation to learn good Russian. Maybe a few years in school as mandatory - and then leave anything further as an option for those that are interested.

Latvia could for example give Russian an official status, but on a lower level than Latvian. For example "second national language" or something like that.

To compare the status of Polish, "Roma" and Russian doesn't make any sense. I haven't heard anyone speak Polish, but every other person on the street is speaking Russian. A large proportion of the Russian speakers in Latvia are born there and have no other home.

The situation in the USA is interesting, but different. USA is an immigrant nation. The idea is to emigrate there and assimilate. It's not comparable to Latvia for lots of reasons.

Since ~2005 official policy is to have 60% of lessons in Latvian and 40% in Russian.
Tax-funded higher education is available in Latvian only (and English for foreign exchange students).
And this approach is working - knowledge of Latvian is increasing each year...

It's good that the skills in Latvian are increasing. But I think Latvia ought to get itself a Russian speaking university. It would be good for the national prestige, it might attract talent from other countries and, it would make the Russian speakers happy, and stop them from going to study in Russia.

Look at Finland. They have only 12% Swedish speakers, but they have two Swedish speaking universities that are adding a lot of value to their country, by attracting students from other Scandinavian countries, keeping the local Swedish speakers happy and those are generally very good universities (I did a term at one of those).

In Wales:


Bomb shelter sign in Finland.
Dual signed so everyone is sure to understand.


Recognition of the very small Polish minority in Germany.
But nothing like this exists in Latvia.

that food and medicine has labels in both languages.

This is not a problem here - go buy something and you will see that there are descriptions in many more languages than just Latvian.

Maybe you did not hear them, but according to official statistics, there are ~50k Poles , ~50k Ukrainians, ~30k Lithuanians and ~80k Belarussians in Latvia.
Latvia is their home country too.
And I strongly oppose Soviet policy that Russian should be pressured onto them.
It is just wrong to say that there are only Latvians and Russians and everyone else should be ignored or counted simply as "krievvalodīgie" (Russian speaking people).
Non-Russian immigrants in Soviet times were encouraged to learn Russian not Latvian.

But I think Latvia ought to get itself a Russian speaking university

There are private Russian speaking high-schools.
And I do not really see a need to fund one from taxes.
All Russian speaking students that I have met know Latvian very good (I recently graduated from Riga Technical University which have a lot of Russian speaking students).

and granting citizenship to those born in the country

To not further delay USSR dissolution topic I will respond here.
If one of parents is a citizen - citizenship is granted automatically.
People who are born to non-citizens after 1991 - if they are younger than 15 years - they can get citizenship after parents' request.

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