Thread: Языковая обстановка в Латвии и др.

Mergike - Really sorry I made an incorrect comment about Lithuania. I didn't know much about Lithuania, had more information about Estonia and Latvia, so I should not have said "the Baltics" and include your country when I didn't know for sure.

Also, when I was in Belarus, there were a lot of references to "Great duchy of Lithuania" which had held parts of Belarus for quite a long time - and it seems the Belarussians liked the Lithuanians. I should have remembered that and checked the facts before making a sweeping statement.

I think that what Nulle says makes a lot of sense.
The USSR is still too close in history, and obviously something like being deported to Siberia for 8 years is not something a person simply forgets and forgives in a hurry. Perhaps in another 20 years (if Russian is still alive in Latvia) people will change their mind and agree that it is more fair too add Russian as a second national language. I think it is surprising though, that nobody in the EU has complained about it - in light of the extraordinary lenghts that many people go to, to accommodate language minorities. Wales is a good example.

It's true that the examples I referred too are from further back in history.
That seems to be the reason why people in Western Europe are a bit more tolerant about such things. All the problems are 100 year(s) back in history and nobody who is still alive can remember them - or the problem was not serious enough for anybody to get really worked up: Like the issues with Finnish and Sami languages in Northern Scandinavia.

Just this morning I saw a Latvian and Lithuanian family speak Russian with each other at breakfast in this hotel. First I thought that they were both Russian, but then I heard what they were talking about and realised they were both Baltic.

Perhaps it's impossible for me to understand how you feel about this. I think I have said everything I have to say about it, and I will leave the subject alone.

and people who speak only Russian and were born and lived there for 50 years have lost rights (became non-citizens) from this day ever after.

Please look some posts above - I already said that people who were citizens of Latvia and their descendants before 1940 did not lose anything - they regained their citizenship regardless of nationality, language skills, etc...
Non-citizens have no citizenship - because state (USSR) that gave it to them does not exist anymore - they have never been Latvian citizens.
Everyone lost their USSR citizenship - me included.

I think it is surprising though, that nobody in the EU has complained about it

EU and most of western countries always have stated that Soviet occupation was illegal. Therefore everyone that immigrated here during Soviet occupation is an illegal immigrant.
And since Latvia restored citizenship to everyone that was its citizen before occupation - everything is OK according to international laws.
And more - according to international laws - Latvia has rights to deport Soviet immigrants (like every illegal immigrant) - but we did not do that and never will - we want them to naturalize, learn Latvian and become Latvian citizens.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The USSR is still too close in history, and obviously something like being deported to Siberia for 8 years is not something a person simply forgets and forgives in a hurry.

Damn, you made my day again! Deportated to Siberia for 8 years! You are talking as if it would have been some kind of holidays to Lithuanians and, of course, Lithuanians will never forget such deportations because it’s just impossible to do that!
Did you know that hundred thousands of Lithuanians were exiled from Lithuania to Siberia and other far east regions and they spent there really not just some 8 years but most of them died there? The most famous places where Lithuanians were exiled was Krasnojarskas, Irkutskas, Tomskas, Kamerovas, Stalinskas, Jakutskas, Ulan Udė, barnaulas, Tiumenė, Siktyvkaras, Igarka, Bodaivas such lager camp like Magadanas and many others. Do you know what kind of people were exiled? Intelligent! Mostly doctors teachers and other educated persons who understood what are the aims of Russia and, of course, these who had their own lands of Lithuania. (After it Russians just let some other drunk Russians come to Lithuania and live in the houses of these exiled Lithuanians) Of course Russians newer warned those who will be exiled, they just came to Lithuanian houses at night, never let to take any things together with them and by force ‘goaded’ them to train carriages which were appropriate to carry animals. In these carriages there even was no space to turn around because of unnormally huge amount of people there (because in the same train carriages were pregnant women, little children and the elders. And then finally when these Lithuanians were already in Siberia (where in winters is -40 degries in Celcium) they had to live in such ice caves (and Russians even didn’t let to take any kind of wood so they could at least heat water for themselves), Lithuanians got about 100 grams of bread per day and worked like slaves for Russians while they were dead. Let’s say children who was about 6 years old worked in salt mines like many other and they during the day had to glue about 500 hundred sacks for the salt. If such a Lithuanian child was able to glue just let’s say 200 sacks per day (even though he worked all day long without any breaks) Russians just stopped giving this his food portion of the day. Lithuanian women and girls usually had to walk over and over again on the board which was put on huge vat full of boiling salts, and at the same time she had to mix all this salt. However, when she had no more strength and fainted and fell down to this boiling salt Russian supervisor usually said. ‘’Well done! There will be fewer of these Lithuanian bandits! And when other people who worked together with that girl started asking if someone can take her dead body of this salt, Russians usually said: ‘’Why? There is no need to do that! If after 6 months when this vat will be cleaned there will be left something of her bones, it will be taken off then.’’ And then they just told to other girl to go on the board and mix this salt again. So from 1944 to 1953 this way were exiled and died in Russia 300 000 most intelligent and hardworking Lithuanians. And this is just a few examples what Russians did not only to hundred thousands of Lithuanians… And, I personally really don’t think that such Russian ‘jobs’ can ever be forgotten.

Originally Posted by nulle

Latvians have very mixed opinions about him. Some view his reign as a golden age for Latvia.
But some think that we should not honor him because he destroyed our democracy and gave our country to Staļin without resistance.

We Lithuanians also have mixed oppinions about our pressident Antanas Smetona because he also left Lithuania one day before Russians illegally occupied Lithuania. Anyway, some historians say that there was actually no other choice for him because if Lithuanians tried to fight back against red army then Russians would have made just a terrible mascare in my country. Back then we wasn;t so strong to fight back against Russia. And when when I think about Latvian president's decision it's really understandable why he behaved so because in 1940 06 15 Russia occupied Lithuania and just when red army was everywhe in Lithuania's teritory, then on 16th of June Russia announced ultimatums both for Latvia and Estonia. This way these countries fell like into some kind of traps which Stalin arranged. And it doesn't matter if Latvia and Estonia would have accepted these ultimatums or not, Russia still would have occupied them because these countries were surrounded by huge russian army. So, overall, these Stalin's ocupation plans worked out just perfectly for Russians and then they reached their aim...

@Mergike
Well I am trying to be understanding about why the Baltics are choosing to discriminate against Russian speakers, even though it is against EU policy, modern policy in Europe and just common decency etc.

But you are just wanting to be a victim about the USSR times and talk about how terrible this was, and why this gives you special dispensation to treat Russian speakers in your country poorly.

Do you want me to say: Yes, the Soviet Union treated your country badly, so it's ok for you to mistreat all Russian speakers?

How does the behaviour of the USSR and the decisions of Stalin in the 1940s give the modern Baltic states a moral right to discriminate against Russian speakers today? The two events are not linked, and one does not justify the other.

An old lady who moved to Estonia to work in a factory in her teens is hardly responsible for anyones grandparents being deported in the 1940s. Or a child born to Russian parents in Latvia today.

All countries have historical grievances. Maybe the Jews have a moral right to go to Germany and kill 6 million Germans?
I mean - move on! Two wrongs do not make a right.

If you dislike Russians and the Russian language so much, then why are you at this forum?

If you just want to complain (probably rightly, but that's besides the point) about mistreatment of your countries during the USSR years, or how terrible the Russians are... then there are plenty of places for that which are better than this forum. This forum is for people who like Russian language, culture and people.

So, overall, these Stalin's occupation plans worked out just perfectly

Authoritarian regimes are partly at fault here.
If Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, and Finland (and maybe some other central European countries too) had united in some kind of Central-North European Union - maybe history would have been different.
But authoritarian leaders at that time were too arrogant to agree on something like that - Ulmanis, for example, was not thinking about foreign relations at all.
Latvia was a "neutral country" at that time - LOL.
At least our politicians have learned of his mistakes - and that's why we are in the EU and NATO now.
The fact that Lithuania and Poland did not have diplomatic relations was a biiig mistake.
Lithuania got Vilnius back, but with that came 50 year long occupation.

Well I am trying to be understanding about why the Baltics are choosing to discriminate against Russian speakers

As I said - the fact that some employers can refuse to speak Latvian proves that Russians are not the ones discriminated here.

And in Lithuania there are no such thing as non-citizens.

Originally Posted by Hanna

@Mergike
Well I am trying to be understanding about why the Baltics are choosing to discriminate against Russian speakers, even though it is against EU policy, modern policy in Europe and just common decency etc.

But you are just wanting to be a victim about the USSR times and talk about how terrible this was, and why this gives you special dispensation to treat Russian speakers in your country poorly.

Do you want me to say: Yes, the Soviet Union treated your country badly, so it's ok for you to mistreat all Russian speakers?

How does the behaviour of the USSR and the decisions of Stalin in the 1940s give the modern Baltic states a moral right to discriminate against Russian speakers today? The two events are not linked, and one does not justify the other.

An old lady who moved to Estonia to work in a factory in her teens is hardly responsible for anyones grandparents being deported in the 1940s. Or a child born to Russian parents in Latvia today.

All countries have historical grievances. Maybe the Jews have a moral right to go to Germany and kill 6 million Germans?
I mean - move on! Two wrongs do not make a right.

If you dislike Russians and the Russian language so much, then why are you at this forum?

If you just want to complain (probably rightly, but that's besides the point) about mistreatment of your countries during the USSR years, or how terrible the Russians are... then there are plenty of places for that which are better than this forum. This forum is for people who like Russian language, culture and people.

Это точно то, что я хотела спросить. Неужели русскоязычное население ничего достойного, заслуживающего уважения не сделало для Прибалтики за советский период? И наверняка продолжают инженерить, строить и т.п.

Hanna said:
How does the behaviour of the USSR and the decisions of Stalin in the 1940s give the modern Baltic states a moral right to discriminate against Russian speakers today? The two events are not linked, and one does not justify the other.


First of all, who said that Russians are treated poorly in Lithuania? Have you any proof so that you could make such a statement?????? Anyway, how fast everything changes. Now not only Latvia but ALL BALTIC COUNTRIES became the ones that discriminate Russians? ‘‘Really, poor the Russians who have ever crossed the border of these countries.‘‘

Everything in history is linked. Every cause has it‘s effect . By the way, no one is discriminating them.

If you dislike Russians and the Russian language so much, then why are you at this forum?


Who said that I dislike Russian people or it‘s language? Did I say so???? The fact that I really do not adore Russia or don‘t feel any special passion for this language doesn‘t mean that I can't stand it. And I came here to improve my Russian language skills but not to make compliments about Russia. Is it forbiden to do that?

This forum is for people who like Russian language, culture and people.

So, if I don‘t adore this language and don‘t say that it‘s just great that Russia occupied my country and killed it‘s people, because I don‘t don‘t say how ''amazingly'' they behaved then I‘m not allowed to enter this forum? You know, I live in a democratic Republic and I have the right to express my oppinion, doesn‘t matter if Russians or someone else like it or not. By the way, what I said is truth and if you don‘t like it and think that this way I‘m already discriminating Russians then it‘s just your problems.
Furthermore, if you say that this forum is just for people who like Russian language, culture and people, then maybe you should also write a message to administrators or whoever take care of this site apearance so that he/she maybe should write at the top of Home page this sentence: ‘‘Persons who are from Baltic countries or whatever part of the world and do not adore, worship or idolize Russia, it‘s people or language SHOULD NOT ENTER THIS FORUM! IT IS FORBIDDEN TO YOU!‘‘
Then everyone would see how works Russian democrasy even there Don‘t you think so?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Это точно то, что я хотела спросить. Неужели русскоязычное население ничего достойного, заслуживающего уважения не сделало для Прибалтики за советский период? И наверняка продолжают инженерить, строить и т.п.

I have nothing at all to say to this your question because these ~8 persent of Russians who live in Lithuania are not discriminated there by any means.
I hope that at least this my answer is clear.
However, if you think differently then give a proof which could justify such your statements about disrespect.

Originally Posted by mergike

Hanna said:
How does the behaviour of the USSR and the decisions of Stalin in the 1940s give the modern Baltic states a moral right to discriminate against Russian speakers today? The two events are not linked, and one does not justify the other.


First of all, who said that Russians are treated poorly in Lithuania? Have you any proof so that you could make such a statement?????? Anyway, how fast everything changes. Now not only Latvia but ALL BALTIC COUNTRIES became the ones that discriminate Russians? ‘‘Really, poor the Russians who have ever crossed the border of these countries.‘‘

Everything in history is linked. Every cause has it‘s effect . By the way, no one is discriminating them.

If you dislike Russians and the Russian language so much, then why are you at this forum?


Who said that I dislike Russian people or it‘s language? Did I say so???? The fact that I really do not adore Russia or don‘t feel any special passion for this language doesn‘t mean that I can't stand it. And I came here to improve my Russian language skills but not to make compliments about Russia. Is it forbiden to do that?

This forum is for people who like Russian language, culture and people.

So, if I don‘t adore this language and don‘t say that it‘s just great that Russia occupied my country and killed it‘s people, because I don‘t don‘t say how ''amazingly'' they behaved then I‘m not allowed to enter this forum? You know, I live in a democratic Republic and I have the right to express my oppinion, doesn‘t matter if Russians or someone else like it or not. By the way, what I said is truth and if you don‘t like it and think that this way I‘m already discriminating Russians then it‘s just your problems.
Furthermore, if you say that this forum is just for people who like Russian language, culture and people, then maybe you should also write a message to administrators or whoever take care of this site apearance so that he/she maybe should write at the top of Home page this sentence: ‘‘Persons who are from Baltic countries or whatever part of the world and do not adore, worship or idolize Russia, it‘s people or language SHOULD NOT ENTER THIS FORUM! IT IS FORBIDDEN TO YOU!‘‘
Then everyone would see how works Russian democrasy even there Don‘t you think so?

LOL

I'm not sure what she's gonna respond to that with, but anyway, I think it will be worth to see.

That's right mergike - покажи ем кузкину мать

Originally Posted by nulle

That's right mergike - покажи ем кузкину мать

Yeah, but don't forget to take off your boots first.

What does it mean ''кузкину мать''? You know, there is not so much Russians in Lithuania when compared to other ex SSRS countries so I actually don't know what is exact meaning of this expression...

Originally Posted by mergike

What does it mean ''кузкину мать''? You know, there is not so much Russians in Lithuania when compared to other ex SSRS countries so I actually don't know what is exact meaning of this expression...

Well, the whole expression basically means "we'll show you who's who". It became famous after Soviet leader Khrushchev while having an official conversation with Americans took off his boot, hit the table with it and shouted, "мы вам покажем кузькину мать!"

Well, the whole expression basically means "we'll show you who's who". It became famous after Soviet leader Khrushchev while having an official conversation with Americans took off his boot, hit the table with it and shouted, "мы вам покажем кузькину мать!"

Hmmm, the version I'm familiar with is that Khrushchev did this at a UN meeting, and he shouted to the Americans "Мы вас похороним!"

The Russian phrase was (correctly not INcorrectly) translated into English as "We will bury you," but Americans understood the meaning to be "Мы вас погребём заживо!" ("We will throw you in a hole and bury you while you're still alive" -- as happened in more than one Edgar Allen Poe story, or as the man did to Uma Thurman in Kill Bill 2!)

After some more Googling, I find that "мы вас похороним" and "мы вам покажем кузькину мать" were allegedly spoken by Khrushchev on different occasions.

But I'm still not sure who "Kuzka's mother" is! Or, more to the point, who is "Kuzka"?

I would guess that Kuzka was an evil monster whose mother was even worse, and so показать кому-нибудь кузькину мать is like saying "If you don't stop misbehaving, I'll call Voldemort's mom!"

(Or substitute "Hannibal Lecter's mom" or "Dracula's mom" or "Grendel's mom," if you like.)

But that's only a guess...

Дедушка 8 лет, естественно, получил "ни за что", евреев не убивал, соседей гестапо не продавал.

If you are telking about my grandfather. He was deported because he did not want to serve in the Red army.

Mergike - actually this discussion should probably have been about Estonia and Latvia, not Lithuania. But it's just easier to say "the Baltics".

I am aware that there is a much smaller number of Russian speakers in Lithuania and I have never read anything specifically mentioning the situation there. An 8 per cent minority is a totally different situation than a 40-50% minority.

To tell the truth - Lithuania is not a country I know much about and I have never been there.

It's the situation in Estonia (where people are basically anti-Russian and sometimes take it out on the local Russian speakers) and Latvia (where the percentage of Russian speakers is 40% or more) that is more relevant for the discussion.

Also I don't think it's particularly relevant for this discussion whether or not anyone in the Baltics was a Nazi during the war. Even among those who were, most did not know dirty secrets of Nazism when they made that choice. It's easy to judge people now - back then, they simply did not know. I feel the same way about people who were passionate communists and simply blind about its faults.

This whole discussion started when I wrote in my travel blog that I thought it was wrong that Latvia was almost "pretending" that the Russian language did not exist in the country... even though at least 40% seem to speak Russian as their mother tongue. (no signs, info etc).

The city of Daugavpils (second largest in Latvia) is almost entirely Russian speaking - you hear no other language on the street. Yet all signs and all information is in Latvia. The situation was communicating a message "the native language of these people doesn't matter - unless they learn Latvian they will not be able to participate in society".

That type of situation would never happen anywhere else in the EU. The information is always either double-signed, or in the local majority language. Treating minorities well is one of the most fundamental concepts of the EU.. based on 100s of years of experience....

If the 40% had been some other nationality, not Russians, and if the USSR legacy and prejudice had not existed, then I think Latvia would be very severely criticized for the way they are handling this situation. It simply would not be acceptable anywhere else in Europe, under any other circumstances. That is why I keep mentioning countries to compare with, that have similar bilingual situations.

I had read quite a few articles in the Swedish press about discrimination (which you may or may not agree about) of Russian speakers, primarily in Estonia but also in Latvia to a lesser degree. Lithuania was never mentioned other than to say that there never were a lot of Russians living there. The Swedish press is not particularly defensive of Russia or Russian people in most other situations - but this is a pretty clear cut case.

Nulle then (unexpectedly) responded to the post in my travel blog, and someone suggested that this discussion be moved to the political forum.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Hmmm, the version I'm familiar with is that Khrushchev did this at a UN meeting, and he shouted to the Americans "Мы вас похороним!"

The Russian phrase was (correctly not INcorrectly) translated into English as "We will bury you," but Americans understood the meaning to be "Мы вас погребём заживо!" ("We will throw you in a hole and bury you while you're still alive" -- as happened in more than one Edgar Allen Poe story, or as the man did to Uma Thurman in Kill Bill 2!)

I think the phrase doesn't have any other hidden meaning in Russian either. But apparently, he thought it did. That reminds me of a classic Soviet joke:

- is that right that Andropov's English is like his Russian?
- not exactly, his Russian is like his English!