Thread: Языковая обстановка в Латвии и др.

That's Latvians who consider Russia to be an enemy.

After Georgian war in 2008 there is a good reason to worry about that.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Russian is spoken by a large part of the population. It is very unfair that it's not an official language.

This opinion I agree with. I think the Russian speakers have a responsibility to make an effort at being good Latvian citizens, including with the language etc. But I think it would be more fair if Russian was acknowledged as an official language or a minority language in the country in recognition of the actual situation in the country. As it is, old people could buy medicine that they can't understand the instructions for, or people might be in danger because they can't understand warning signs. Plus it is a courtesy! Finland is a good example. Sweden "occupied" Finland for a few hundred years and for that reason there have always been native Swedish speakers there. It's only about 15% of the population, but they can get everything they need in Swedish, and when I go there, I can always feel comfortable about reading signs and important information. Anyway, it's cool to be a bilingual country! It enriches the country a lot.

About the Georgia invasion:
There is definitely another side to that story. I think the reporting in European media was relatively one sided. A few months afterwards, even British media realised this and ran some "other side of the story" articles. Russia wouldn't just invade the Baltics for no reason, Nato or not They were there during WW2 to fight the Nazis and then I suppose just took advantage of the situation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

About the Georgia invasion:
There is definitely another side to that story. I think the reporting in European media was relatively one sided. A few months afterwards, even British media realised this and ran some "other side of the story" articles. Russia wouldn't just invade the Baltics for no reason, Nato or not They were there during WW2 to fight the Nazis and then I suppose just took advantage of the situation.

But as far as I know, the Soviets invaded Latvia in 1940, there was also something about the war between the USSR and Finland, the point is they didn't then worry about Nazis (they didn't till 1941). So, what's the Russian view on this, why would they have done that?

Finland had been part of the Russian empire until the Revolution in 1917. (Russia had won it earlier in a war with Sweden). In the general chaos of the revolution and ww1, Finland took the opportunity to declare independence.
Then for whatever reason, the USSR (Stalin, I imagine) decided to try to "take Finland back". Finland saw this coming, and got into a defence pact with Nazi Germany. The USSR saw that as all the more reason why they needed to take Finland back. The USSR was not properly prepared and underestimated Finland. Finland did quite well in that war, and got a bit greedy and tried to expand their own territory into Russia . Because of that, they ended up losing a region called Karelia to Russia. Finland realised they had been quite lucky and stayed very neutral from then on, and had no further problems with the USSR. I think the relationship between Finland and Russia is pretty good at the moment.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Finland had been part of the Russian empire until the Revolution in 1917. (Russia had won it earlier in a war with Sweden). In the general chaos of the revolution and ww1, Finland took the opportunity to declare independence.
Then for whatever reason, the USSR (Stalin, I imagine) decided to try to "take Finland back". Finland saw this coming, and got into a defence pact with Nazi Germany. The USSR saw that as all the more reason why they needed to take Finland back. The USSR was not properly prepared and underestimated Finland. Finland did quite well in that war, and got a bit greedy and tried to expand their own territory into Russia . Because of that, they ended up losing a region called Karelia to Russia. Finland realised they had been quite lucky and stayed very neutral from then on, and had no further problems with the USSR. I think the relationship between Finland and Russia is pretty good at the moment.

Ok, thanks for that explanation, just a small question on this: if Soviets hadn't initially decided to "get back" the territory they had no rights on, the whole thing wouldn't have happened, right?

But I was mainly asking about Latvia. Why 1940? And why Baltic states? I'm aware that the USSR had a deal with Nazy Germany on their interests in the occupied Poland. That is, not only they weren't enemies, but they were allies then. Did the same thing happen in Latvia? And I'd like to accent here, till 1941 the Soviets hadn't considered the Nazis any evil. I think that's clear for everyone.

According to the ideology, the USSR liberated the countries.
For example in Finland (which was very poor at the time) there were quite a few communists who were keen to be "liberated" by the USSR, and thought they'd get a better and more fair lifestyle in the USSR. But they were not the majority.

I think the situation was the same in the Baltics. I have some distant relatives of Estonian origin. They were farmers. Everyone in the family moved to Sweden in 1945 because they had a bad view of the USSR. However one brother was happy to stay there. According to my grandfather, he was a communist. Lots of people in the Baltic states too, were communists. The Baltic SSR states were not run by Russians, but by local people who were communists.

Secondly, Stalin was just as much a national leader/dictator who wanted more power, influence territory... as he was a communist.

Basically a lot of the things that the USSR did in the the 30s - 50s have a lot more to do with what Stalin wanted, than what was necessarily communist idelogy. For example, communism does not say that people should be sent to labour camps in distant locations. That was just Stalin continuing an old Russian tradition from hundreds of years back... but greatly increasing the scope because he was not willing to accept any dissent.

I don't know any details of this, like I said - in school I was told the version that they were liberated from nazism by the Red Army and then incorporated into the USSR - end of story. I was aware that some people disagreed with this view though and in the 1990s the views of the Baltic people became clear. But the Baltics practically never were independent countries, always part of other countries. Just for about 20 years or so, they were independent. Russia, Sweden, Germany, Poland and probably some other country have been running part of that area for many decades.

But I was mainly asking about Latvia. Why 1940? And why Baltic states

They wanted to expand their empire - it's that simple - more people to oppress, more slaves for the GULAG, more resources to loot and exploit.
Sweden was lucky - if Finland had lost the Winter War, then Soviets would probalby try to invade Sweden too.

They were there during WW2 to fight the Nazis and then I suppose just took advantage of the situation.

Until 1941 Nazis and Communists were allies.

There is definitely another side to that story.

Maybe, but there were ethnic cleansing and ethnic Georgian expulsion from Abkhazia and S-Ossetia. (Yes I know that these two countries want independence from Georgia)
Also Russian forces entered in uncontested areas of Georgia and killed civilians there.

I really do not like that they repeat something like that with Latgale.

Finland did quite well in that war, and got a bit greedy and tried to expand their own territory into Russia

In Continuation war they simply took back territories that USSR stole from them after the end of Winter War - And refused to go further despite the fact that Hitler asked them to.

More about language - I previously showed laws that regulate languages here.
As I said - referendum is the only way (we have democracy not authoritatian regime here).
And this summer/autumn radical ultranationalists Vladimir Linderman and Yevgeni Osipov may be starting one - they just need to collect ~150 000 signatures to initiate this referendum.
But this referendum will certainly fail - because they are using retorics like - "Russians! - do not give up - we will show Latvians their place" - no latvian is going to vote for that.
So basically - russians are partly responsible for current situation - you cannot force someone to love you.

Originally Posted by nulle

of course it's not that bad like in Russia...Putin's propaganda...But unlike in Russia where there is no democracy

Originally Posted by nulle

I live ~30 km from Russian border, and I haven't been there

lol

Originally Posted by nulle

Sweden was lucky - if Finland had lost the Winter War, then Soviets would probalby try to invade Sweden too.

Russia has never tried to invade Sweden PROPER. I don't think Russia has ever been interested in that territory.

Originally Posted by nulle

In Continuation war they simply took back territories that USSR stole from them after the end of Winter War - And refused to go further despite the fact that Hitler asked them to.

Well I am no expert but I was told that they wanted to create "Great Finland" which was larger than the traditionally Finnish speaking areas, practically all the way to St Petersburg.

radical ultranationalists Vladimir Linderman and Yevgeni Osipov

What is their agenda? Are they Russian speakers born in Latvia?


Latvian politicians should read this:

Originally Posted by EU Official Document, One Family, many languages

The language we speak helps define who we are. The European Union respects this right to identity of its 450 million citizens. While committed to integration between its member states, the EU also actively promotes the freedom of its peoples to speak and write their own language. The two aims are complementary, embodying the EU’s motto of united in diversity.

In addition, the Union actively encourages its citizens to learn other European languages, both for reasons of professional and personal mobility within its single market, and as a force for cross-cultural contacts and mutual understanding. In an ever-growing and more diverse EU, it is important that its citizens can communicate with each other. The Union also promotes the use of regional or minority languages which are not official EU languages, but which are spoken by up to 50 million people in the member countries, and as such form part of our cultural heritage.

Even if majority of parliament supports Russian as official language (they don't) - there still needs to be a referendum.
Currently majority of Latvians simply do not want to give it any status - reminds them of Soviet Union, etc.
How do you think they can change their minds?

Russians should start discussions about that issue, because otherwise they will never get any official status for their language.
"Мы вам покажем кузькину мать!" and "Бей гансов!" certainly will not help

What is their agenda? Are they Russian speakers born in Latvia?

Divide and conquer.
Create conflict between nationalities and then try to get more votes from more radical people.
Sadly such tactics are used both by russian and latvian radical nationalists to get into the parliament.
I'm really tired that in our country political parties are not divided by ideologies, but by nationalities.

Latvieti nepadodies - krievi nāk!!! (Fellow Latvians - do not surrender - Russians are coming!!!)
Русские - не сдаваться!!! - Mы ем покажем!!!
This bullshit is repeated before every elections for 20 years...

Exactly. I think the reason for all this is in the PAST. Some Russians can't get in their head that things have changed, and some Latvians are so hung up on the USSR that they don't notice that they are behaving in a rather dictatorial/insensitive way themselves.

I have had the opportunity to be here for almost 2 weeks and I have noticed that the similarities between the groups are very strong - I thought there'd be bigger differences. Most of the time here in Liepaja I cannot look at a person and guess what language they speak. Both groups are friendly (although more reserved than the other countries I visited - in line with people further North being a bit frostier, as I myself well know.)

Most of the Russian speakers are generally going along with the policy here: They address strangers (me) in Latvian, they speak Latvian in shops. I think they only switch over if they know that the other person prefers Russian.

I would really admire Latvia and Latvian people if they could be 'big' enough to let the past be in the past and help integrate the Russian speakers to reality of living in a smaller, EU country. While supporting their right to have their own mother tongue. If Russian was used more on signs etc, then there'd probably be more tourism from all of the CIS countries. Presumably that would be a good thing. I have met some Latvians who speak such good Russian that I can't hear that they are not native speakers. That is really impressive.

To try to surpress the Russian language or treat the Russian speakers like second class citizens is reminiscent of some nasty old dictatorship from centuries ago - not the way for a modern country to behave. No EU country behaves like that now (although many have in the past, Sweden for example).
Likewise if all the Russian speakers left, then the country would stop functioning. I can't imagine anyone in Latvia wants that.

I completely agree with the ideas which nulle expressed there it's a real truth Lithuanians also do not celebrate 9th of May. It would be just terrible to celebrate that day because since it our hopes to be independent was almost completely burried.
Anyway, while reading this forum thread I started to think why Russians are still staying and living in Latvia if life there for them is so bad and they are so much discriminated there?
And, Markus, I think that it's actually very fair that Russian isn't official language in Latvia, because Latvians, the same way like Lithuanians, Estonians or any other nation in the world have their own language, so for them there is no need to make Russian their official language.
Talking about interaction between Baltic countries I wouldn't say that it's very huge and active, it might be better But anyway, at least we Lithuanians really like other Baltic countries and most of us have very possitive attitude towards Latvia and Estonia. We even usually call them our brothers. So, I think that these Baltic countries can allways expect support from Lithuania no matter what would happen.
And one more thing. I guess it's really a good thing that when Lithuania regained independence Russia took Kaliningrad region for themselves... If they didn't do that, then there would be a huge minority of Russians in Lithuania who would start blaming us that we are nationalists, or that weare discriminating Russian minority in Lithuania as they are doing now in Latvia... really it would be just another headache.

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Baltics practically never were independent countries, always part of other countries. Just for about 20 years or so, they were independent. Russia, Sweden, Germany, Poland and probably some other country have been running part of that area for many decades.

Oh, hanna, what a mistake are you doing? if your teacher said to you that baltics practically never was independent countries then I'll start to doubt if she ever studied history at all... As you know Lithuania also is one of the Baltic countries, so if we never were independent then how it happened that Lithuanian is one of the oldest indo european languages and that in 2009 we celebrated 1000 years anniversary since our country exists??? I guess you didb't know that the first time when name of Lithuania was mentioned was in 1009 and that in middle ages while Lithuania was one of the strongest countries in Europe and it's territory looked like that http://77.79.38.19/mokinys/Svetan%EB...VytautoLDK.png So you know it's very strange that someone coudn't notice that there exist such country which have teritory from Baltic sea to the Black sea. However time passed and Lithuania in 1569 made a commonwealth with Poland and it actually existed till 1795 ( then Russia, Austria and Prusia just simply shared Poland and Lithuania.) Since then The bigest part of Lithuanian territory was joined to Russia. Russians of course forbade Lithuanians to talk in our mother tongue, use it envery day life, started closing churches and tried to make athesists of us. Also as they saw that Lithuanians are not giving up to their rule and still are printing secret books in Lithuanian even if it's forbiden, that they are creating secret schools where teaches their children of Lithuanian language, Russians tried to become our ''friends'' and said that we can write Lithuanian words in Kirilica, however Lithuanians weren't that stupid so that they would do that. They simply didn't read your printed books in Russian. So Lithuanians had to endure this terrible russian policy till started the first WW. Also when in 1905 Russia lost war against Japan and all the world saw that russia isn't as strong as they thought beforethen Didysis Vilniaus seimas was arranged ( Lithuanian parlament) and during it 2000 Lithuanians who came to Vilnius (from Moscow, Odesa, sankt Peterburg, and many other cities of Lithuania and Latvia) come to conclusion that Lithuania won't stop reaching for it's independence. Later on started the first world war which changed the balance of strenghts in the Europe. Also February and October events which happened in Russia was quitea good circumstance which helped to regain our independence. In 1917 there was a conference in Vilnius where was accepted Lithuanian independence declaration and then Lithuania canceled it's diplomatic relations with Russia and Poland and started conversation with Germany. However Germany didn't accepled this independence declaration and did it just in 1918 when on 16th of february Lithuania announced it's independence note, act, or certificate. Ofcouse Russia didn't liked it and there still was fights in 1919-1920 Betvien Lithuanians and der army. However, Lithuanians in 1920 January finally defeated bolsheviks. In 1920 12th of July there was made an agreement where Soviet Russia accepted independence of Lithuania. Then Lithuanians lived in free democratic Lithuanian respublic till second WW started and in 194015th of June Russia again occupied Lithuania. Then lasted long terrible years full of agression against Lithuanians, full of stupid policy which Russians made in my country. And you say that Lithuanians where ruling Lithuania back then? wake up! there might have been few Lithuanians in higher posts but all the orders came to Moscow. Lithuanians cfoudn't say anything against SSRS because they simply would have been deportated to Siberia, or would have been shot right away. And if there are people who says that Baltic countries wanted to be the part of this Soviet union then maybe they can also explain why in 1990 they said that they want to be free and soviet tanks went on alive unarmed people who did nothing wrong at all. How does it looks? http://images.alfa.lt/68/96/23.JPG Anyway, as you see baltic states are free again. Does it still seems to you that these countries never were independent? if so, then try to count how Long Lithuania was independed. I hope that you are better at math than history.. And I don't know if you have ever heard such name like Kārlis Ulmanis. But if you did then you shoud also know that other baltic states also were independent much longer than just 20 years.

And I don't know if you have ever heard such name like Kārlis Ulmanis.

Latvians have very mixed opinions about him. Some view his reign as a golden age for Latvia.
But some think that we should not honor him because he destroyed our democracy and gave our country to Staļin without resistance.

why Russians are still staying and living in Latvia if life there for them is so bad and they are so much discriminated there

Some of them are emigrating, but... not to Russia .

I think the reason for all this is in the PAST.

But it is not a distant past like between Finland and Sweden. Nobody hates Sweden now but ~300 years ago they occupied us.
Soviet army left only in 1994.
My grandparents that were deported are still alive.
Most of 30+ year olds remember when everything here was in russian - education, government, etc.
Remember soviet guest workers and military that immigrated here in large numbers (Lithuanians were more lucky).
(can't really blame these people - life in the rest of Soviet Union was a lot worse than in the Baltic states)
Remember KGB officials that were infiltrated everywhere.
Remember that russian was FORCED on everyone.
That's why most of people here do not want to see signs in Russian - reminds them of USSR.
And this was not 200 years ago - only 20.
That's why Russian will not be an official language anytime soon. Maybe after ~20 years.

I have a number of Mexican neighbors que no hablan Inglés, and although I can read some elementary Spanish, I don't speak the language at all. And I have no interest in learning Spanish in order to socialize better with my Mexican neighbors; if they have something important to say to me, they can say it in the language of my country, which is the same language that my neighbors from Korea and Haiti and Lebanon have all had to struggle with, namely English. Or, if they don't want to learn English, they can f*ckin' study Russian, like I did, и потом мы с ними можем ме-е-е-едленно и по-тарзански разговарывать на языке, куда труднее чем английского или испанского! (Really, my spoken Russian is like Tarzan, and thus the Mexicans and I would be on equal footing!)

So I think that Latvians are perfectly entitled to say about their Russian-speaking minority: "Learn Latvian and raise your children to speak Latvian. Or, if you don't want to learn Latvian, then we can agree to talk in a language that's foreign to both of us, like English or German."

Nobody hates Sweden now but before ~300 years ago they occupied us.
...
And this was not before 200 years ago - this was only before 20 years ago

(nulle, your English is otherwise very good!)

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I have a number of Mexican neighbors que no hablan Inglés, and although I can read some elementary Spanish, I don't speak the language at all. And I have no interest in learning Spanish in order to socialize better with my Mexican neighbors; if they have something important to say to me, they can say it in the language of my country, which is the same language that my neighbors from Korea and Haiti and Lebanon have all had to struggle with, namely English. Or, if they don't want to learn English, they can f*ckin' study Russian, like I did, и потом мы с ними можем ме-е-е-едленно и по-тарзански разговарывать на языке, куда труднее чем английского или испанского! (Really, my spoken Russian is like Tarzan, and thus the Mexicans and I would be on equal footing!)

So I think that Latvians are perfectly entitled to say about their Russian-speaking minority: "Learn Latvian and raise your children to speak Latvian. Or, if you don't want to learn Latvian, then we can agree to talk in a language that's foreign to both of us, like English or German."

Так что, "нажмите 2 для английского языка" в Вирджинии, также? =) Я думал, что это только нас, в штате Аризона =) Теперь он везде, я думаю. Иногда я чувствую, как вы говорил. Я могу говорить, что я люблю испанский народ и свою культуру .. но, слишком много испанского языка здесь.

Thanks for correcting me Throbert - I was not paying attention .
YouTube - ‪krievu bardaks 9.maijā‬‏
I really love texts like "На Берлин" and "T-34" on German made cars - shows who really won after all.

to Throbert and Kidkboom
The situation in the Baltic States is not equal to the situation when newly come immigrants demand their own language being promoted to the status of official state language. For the 50 years there were several official languages and one of them was Russian but due to nationalistic ideas it was dismantled and people who speak only Russian and were born and lived there for 50 years have lost rights (became non-citizens) from this day ever after.

Imagine a sci-fi case when English is dismantled in US and only those who speak Spanish are the citizens and allowed to vote. Would it be fair to the US people who can speak only English if they became non-citizens without any rights. What about English speaking people aged 50-60. The ability to learn a new language is not easy for them.

Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

to Throbert and Kidkboom
The situation in the Baltic States is not equal to the situation when newly come immigrants demand their own language being promoted to the status of official state language. For the 50 years there were several official languages and one of them was Russian but due to nationalistic ideas it was dismantled and people who speak only Russian and were born and lived there for 50 years have lost rights (became non-citizens) from this day ever after.

Imagine a sci-fi case when English is dismantled in US and only those who speak Spanish are the citizens and allowed to vote. Would it be fair to the US people who can speak only English if they became non-citizens without any rights. What about English speaking people aged 50-60. The ability to learn a new language is not easy for them.

The immigrants in the US haven't shown up in a few days either. Anyway, it took some time for them to create their Spanish speaking community, just like it did for the Russians in the Baltic states. And comparing that to English losing its official status in the US is quite incorrect, it's rather like the Spanish speaking immigrants started demanding the authorities make Spanish an official language.