Thread: В следующем месяце мы собираемся навестить своих друзей!

I am struggling to work out the cases of this sentence and wondered if anyone could help.

[В следующем месяце] - I assume месяце is in the prepositional due to В and this causes the adjective "next" to form the female prepositional.

[мы собираемся навестить] - We are going or planning? to visit...

[своих друзей] - Now if the above is correct this is where I am struggling as своих and друзей are both the genitive and accusative and as far as своих goes I "think" it could work as both? Is it possible to access which one it is or should I just leave it up to my imagination.

Cheers

Comments:

Originally Posted by ShakeyX

I am struggling to work out the cases of this sentence and wondered if anyone could help.

[В следующем месяце] - I assume месяце is in the prepositional due to В - right!
and this causes the adjective "next" to form the female prepositional. - wrong, it's masculine, not feminine. Месяц itself is masculine. And -ем is a masculine endining (the feminine ending would be -ей).

[мы собираемся навестить] - We are going or planning? to visit... - right! I noticed your question mark. But for me, I'm going to do smth. and I'm planning to do smth. mean the same. Are they different for you?

[своих друзей] - Now if the above is correct this is where I am struggling as своих and друзей are both the genitive and accusative and as far as своих goes I "think" it could work as both? Is it possible to access which one it is or should I just leave it up to my imagination.

- You mean genitive vs acusative? If yes, you're right! They have the same form here. But why do you need to decide? If you understood the meaning of the phrase, that's all!
Yep, you can decide: навестить is a transitive verb, and it requires accusative. But most Russian speakers do not know if that is genitive or accusative in this context As far as you understand the phrase, that's all right!

Cheers

Ah yes sorry I did mean Masculine. But yeh for me planning and going has slightly different meanings.

If I said in English "I am going to go swimming" it hints that it is going to happen soon, almost immediate unless stated otherwize (I'm going to go swimming on sunday). And I'm planning to go swimming would mean you are making a plan, and this hints that it first needs to be planned before you end up heading in this direction. I don't think thats just me. For example I might say; I'm planning on visiting France (one day in my life I want to see France)/ I'm going to visit France (it is a definite thing I've planned)... I dunno I'm not that good at my own language as it is :P just how I see it.

And yes I guess I understand it's just hard when trying to learn the rules so that it will crossover to other examples. But I guess svoih could be genitive and druzyej could be dative and it makes just as much sense as both dative!

My comments:

Originally Posted by ShakeyX

But yeh for me planning and going has slightly different meanings. - For me - not! I'm sorry of course, but doesn't it show you that languages behave differently?

If I said in English "I am going to go swimming" it hints that it is going to happen soon, - OK, in Russian: Я собираюсь поплавать (The context will show if it is going to happen in the near future (5 - 10 minutes) or later (1-2 years)).

almost immediate unless stated otherwize (I'm going to go swimming on sunday). - OK, very interesting!

And I'm planning to go swimming would mean you are making a plan, and this hints that it first needs to be planned before you end up heading in this direction.

- In Russian, you may express it directly:
" Я хочу поплавать через две-три недели" ( I'm going (planning) to swim in 2-3 weeks).

don't think thats just me. For example I might say; I'm planning on visiting France (one day in my life I want to see France)/ I'm going to visit France (it is a definite thing I've planned)...

Sorry, I do not think we ever express this difference in Russian. I had my difficult time in even understanding the difference. I'm not sure I've got it exactly.

I dunno I'm not that good at my own language as it is :P just how I see it.

And yes I guess I understand it's just hard when trying to learn the rules so that it will crossover to other examples. But I guess svoih could be genitive and druzyej could be dative and it makes just as much sense as both dative!

I wonder: in some concepts, our language is more specific than yours (when it comes to the noun cases or verb aspects).
In other concepts,your language is more specific than ours (when it comes to verb tenses).
Is not it interesting?

Yeh I guess I mean again I'm not entirely 100% sure I am correct but in day to day life I would say "I'm planning to visit Russia [one day]" and then "I'm going to Russia [in a few weeks]"... this is why when I came across the word собираюсь I was really confused as some sentences on this program I use would say "I plan to swim" which yes does work. I guess it's not that it doesnt make sense it's just one of those things that would maybe sound odd in normal speech. I would say I'm going to swim if it was going to happen soon like... i'm a theme park "hey guys I'm going to go swim in the swimming pool". but if it was an event, such as my birthday and I was telling my friends what we were going to do that day I may say, "I am planning that we all go swimming".

Hope this slightly helps.

^^ i.e. planning, making a plan to do something rather than in the process of going to do it.

Now I see what you mean
But you do not even imagine how deep your question about "собираться" vs "to be going to" is! Your question touches some basics of the "linguo-cultural" relationship. The general idea is that every language reflects some specific view of some culture. There are some words and expressions which exist in language A and have no exact equivalents in language B because they are somewhat "culturally specific" words.

To be brief, the English expression "to be going to" has NO exact Russian equivalent. Of course, there are some ways to express your intension to do something immediately. For example, you can say:
"Я буду купаться прямо сейчас" - I will swim right now.
"Давайте искупаемся прямо сейчас!" -Let's swim right now!
"А сейчас я хочу искупаться" - And now I want to have a swim.
etc.
It depends on a specific situation.
However, there is no fixed expression for "to be going to" in our language.

On the other hand, "собираться" is a very Russian verb. It has no exact equivalent in English.
Yes, when I learned English at school, we were taught to translate "to be going to" as "собираться". We had to learn this expression since it is very frequent in English. But the teacher did not explain us all the nuances.

That is not my own thought. I read a very interesting article which explains the "linguo-cultural" relationship in general, and discusses the verb "собираться" in particular. Unfortunately, the article is in Russian. I can find it and I can try to translate it into English, if you are interested in this subject.

Shall I?

I always internally translate "собираться" as "preparing to...", which has the certainty of "going to..." without the implied immediacy or imminency.

It's not precise, but it's usually closer in meaning.

I'd say it depends on a situation. For some situations it would work (when you are really doing something to get prepared), for others it wouldn't.
Just imagine: "Завтра я собираюсь встретиться с друзьями" - in this context, it just expresses your intention or plan, but does not imply any "activity", you are not doing anything to prepare for the meeting. Similar example: "Вечером мы собираемся вместе посмотреть фильм" - there's no shade of "preparing".

But sometimes, yes, it's more like "preparing".

No, but "prepare" doesn't necessarily imply an action in English either, it can indicate intent, willingness or readiness.

Note that I said "internally translate", by which I mean that's how I translate it to myself when I hear it for the purpose of understanding, because it's unambiguous in that particular meaning. It wouldn't make sense to translate it that way for anyone else's benefit though because the first sense of the English word is the literal one you're using. If I was actually translating the word for someone else's benefit of course I'd use the most suitable of the options you listed earlier - "going to..." or "planning to...".

This verb is also being discussed in a blog of a Swedish student of Russian: Meet the Verb: «собираться»! | Russian Language Blog

The post is quite long, but its last two paragraphs are dedicated solely to the meaning and usage of "собираться". You may find it interesting.

Yes if you could find a translation I would be interested as it is a confusing verb for me. This program I use "Rosetta Stone" if you've heard of it, just shows pictures and gives the words in Cyrillic Russian so most the time I find myself using Wiktionary or Google Translate to find the meaning of a newly introduced word and go from there. And the definition of sobirayus' just never seemed to fit what I had in mind for the sentence.

собирать (sobirát’) impf. — собрать (sobrát’) pf.
to gather, collect
to assemble
to convoke
(for a journey) to equip, prepare

В следующем месяце мы собираемся навестить своих друзей!

so in the original sentence; Next week we ...prepare... we gather, assemble... visit our friends. Just doesn't seem to fit which is why I guess there is no literal translation.

Well, I'll try to find the article. I would also advise you to check the link above ("meet the verb").

For now, just a few words about the origine of this verb.

OK, собирать (sobirát’) impf. — собрать (sobrát’) pf.
to gather, collect
- Yes, that's right. It's the primary meaning of the transitive verb (собирать что? to gather, collect what?).
Some examples that first come to my mind:
Он собирает почтовые марки. - He collects post stamps. i.e. He makes a collection of them, I think you get it.
Я собираю вещи в дорогу. - I'm collecting (packing) things for a journey. (literally: "to road").

собираться (imperfective) / собраться (perfective)
is a reflexive verb (note the -ся).
And being a reflexive verb, it is intransitive (i.e. it cannot take a direct object).

It either expresses the "passive voice" (to be being collected, gathered) - not so frequently used in this sense;
or it expresses the reflexive meaning ("to get collected, gathered" or "to get prepared"):
- На площади собралось много людей.
- A lot of people "have been collected" in the square (i.e. They have been met there, e.g. to have a mass meeting).

E.g., the direct meaning of "собираться" can be seen in the following example:
- Что ты сейчас делаешь?
- Я собираюсь в дорогу.
- What are you doing now?
- I'm getting ready for a journey. (Lit.: I'm "getting myself packed" for a journey) - this meaning is still related to "packing things", "collecting things", can you see it?

Now you are close to understanding its meaning in sense of "getting ready" for something:
- Я собираюсь отметить свой день рождения, поэтому я иду в магазин за продуктами.
- I'm "getting myself ready" to celebrate my birthday, that's why I'm going to a shop for some food.

But generally, "собираться" can just mean "to have an intention to do something", it does not necessarily imply you perform some actions. It can focus more on some kind of "mobilizing your internal resources" to do something
- Я собираюсь навестить своих друзей в следующем месяце.
Can be understood as "I have an intention to visit my friends next month", "I have a plan to do it", "I think I would probably do it if something does not prevent me" etc.

OK, I hope I'll find and translate the article a bit later. Я собираюсь найти и перевести эту статью чуть попозже (good example, yeah?)

Originally Posted by ShakeyX

And the definition of sobirayus' just never seemed to fit what I had in mind for the sentence.

собирать (sobirát’) impf. — собрать (sobrát’) pf.
to gather, collect
to assemble
to convoke
(for a journey) to equip, prepare

В следующем месяце мы собираемся навестить своих друзей!

It is better to look up reflective verbs in a dictionary without reducing them to simpler forms.

собираться
1) (сосредоточиваться в одном месте) gather (together), assemble
2) (готовиться) prepare (for); (собирать вещи) pack up one's things
3) (+ ; намереваться) intend (+ to ) , be going (+ to ) , plan (+ to )

As you can see, the meaning 3) is completely missing in the non-reflective verb собирать.

Could собираться also be used for 'to brace oneself' or 'to steel oneself' ? Or is that quite different?

Originally Posted by Seraph

Could собираться also be used for 'to brace oneself' or 'to steel oneself' ? Or is that quite different?

Not the verb собираться/собраться by itself, AFAIK, but you can use the idiom собираться/собраться с силами (or с духом) with the meaning "to summon one's strength; to muster up the nerve":

Ей пришлось долго собираться с силами/духом, чтобы признаться родителям в том, что она лесбиянка. (She had to steel herself for a long time, in order to admit to her parents that she's a lesbian.)

I'm not sure if there's a connotative difference between с силами and с духом in this case, though I would guess that с силами is used when you want to clearly emphasize physical strength.

P.S. Also, another expression with собираться/собраться с + instrumental: Он собирается с мыслями, "he's collecting his thoughts".

OK, as I have promised:

The article’s name is «Картина мира, нарисованная языком» (The world picture as it is painted by the language). Its original version (in Russian) is available here: Наука: Картина мира, нарисованная языком. Please have a look at it, even if you cannot understand Russian: there are some funny pictures illustrating some words (including «собираться»).

The whole article is quite long, and I have only translated its part where it comes to the specificity of the verb «собираться».

I am not so good in text translation, probably someone else could do it better. So feel free to correct me and to ask if something is not understandable.

I have also provided some grammar comments to make things clearer. The article itself is more for Russians who learn foreign languages.

…

«Собираться»

When you say «Я собираюсь изучать английский язык» (I am planning/intended to learn English) to your friend, your friend understands it well that you are not currently learning English, and there is even no guarantee that you will ever start learning it. Russian «собираться», Shmelyov explains, is a kind of an important concept which carries the idea that a person has to “mobilize his inner resources” prior to doing something.

It might seem there is no significant difference beween «планирование» "planning" and, say, «намерение» "intention". However, it is completely impossible to imagine a situation when we were "planning, planning something" «мы планировали, планировали» but finally do not succeed in "getting it planned" «так и не запланировали».

On the other hand, if we «собирались» (past tense imperfective!, i.e. we were in the process of «собираться») to do something, that could really be the case: that is quite natural for us to say that a person «собирался» (past tense imperfective again!) to do something, but did not «собрался» (past tense perfective – i.e. did not succeed in «собираться»), - Shmelyov says. But if a person finally «собрался» (past tense perfective – i.e. he succeeded in «собираться»), that nearly guarantees he has almost "done" it!

Other words, the process of «собираться» in the view of the Russian language, is a more important part of an action than the action itself. Linguists think, it is probably due to our wide spaces. Unsurprisingly, when we are getting ready for a trip, we namely "gather the things" (собираем вещи), as compared to Englishmen and Frenchmen, who "pack them" (пакуют их). Of course, we are packing them as well, but it is more important for our language that we have everything "gathered". As for packing – we will surely have time for that.

The distance between the English "I am going", which is usually translated into Russian as «собираться», and the corresponding action is much shorter. If you imagine a Russian sentry on guard who is crying something as «Стой, я собираюсь стрелять!» - "Stop, I собираюсь to fire!" to a stranger, the stranger will hardly be frightened – it is not obvious when that "scatter-brain" finally «соберётся» (future perfective – will succeed in «собираться», will get ready to fire). But the English "I am going to fire!" means you are already aimed at, and the cock is raised.

/My comment: of course, it’s impossible to imagine a sentry on guard saying «Стой, я собираюсь стрелять!» - it already sounds funny. In reality, he would say something like «Стой, стрелять буду!» (Stop! I will fire!) or even «Я стреляю!» (I am firing!) to accentuate his resolution. «Собираться» is certainly not an option in this context/

But when I tried to explain the meaning of the Russian verb «собираться» to Kieshi Oguri from Japan, neither me nor my interpreter could manage it at all. Oguri kept shaking his head and shrugging his shoulders. What can we do? – His world picture is different!

Two comments about English "I am going to [do so-and-so]":

(1) In some cases, I would characterize it as simply a "marker" of the future tense: "I am going to make a sandwich for lunch = "I will make a sandwich for lunch" = Я приготовлю сэндвич на обед. (If you want to more clearly emphasize the meaning of "planning" or "intending", you can say "I think I'm going to make a sandwich for lunch" = "I'm planning to make a sandwich for lunch" = Я собираюсь готовить...)

Also consider the example "Try some of this 'baklazhannaya ikra' -- it may look strange, but I'll bet you're going to love the taste!!" Here, the sense of "planning/intending" (ты собирается любить эту икру) isn't even possible; "you're going to love it" can only be a simple future construction signifying "you will love it".

(2) In colloquial spoken English, "going to" in the sense of "собираться" or as a future-tense marker generally has a very different pronunciation than it does in contexts where literal motion is expressed. (As in "He was going to the library," Он шел в библиотеку.)

When there's no motion expressed, "going to" is usually "vowel reduced" to something like гойнгда, and sometimes contracted even further to ганна ("gonna"). And the first-person form "I'm going to" (because it's such a high-frequency usage) may be even more contracted/reduced, to something that sounds like амана, or even амо (this last pronunciation is stereotypically associated with African-American speech: "Ah-mo make a sammich" = "I'm going to make a sandwich").

But when "going to" signifies actual motion -- i.e., when it's translatable with a form of ходить/идти or ездить/ехать -- the pronunciation is more clear and careful:

"He's going to (гоинг ту) the kitchen because he's going to (гойнгда or ганна) make a sandwich." (Он идёт на кухню, потому что он собирается готовить сэндвич). Also notice that in the first clause, "to" is a directional preposition that governs the noun "kitchen", but in the second clause, it's an infinitive marker that really belongs to the verb "make", yet is phonetically assimilated with "going".

Originally Posted by Seraph

Could собираться also be used for 'to brace oneself' or 'to steel oneself' ? Or is that quite different?

Yes, when someone is dismayed, confused or bewildered it is typical to strengthen him up with "Соберись!"