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Thread: Valda - разные вопросы по глаголам

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Valda - разные вопросы по глаголам

    So I'm practicing with my Russian friend and for HW she wrote:

    Я хочу стать _______ (инженер) , буду целый день собирать ________ (робот)

    The answer according to her is:

    Я хочу стать инженером, буду целый день собирать роботов.

    I understand инженером, but why use the Genitive case in роботов? Nothing would indicate here ownership, "of", "some", "any"....

    She, as a native speaker, says it just sounds correct to her. She isn't familiar with cases and grammar names of stuff, so she can't give me the logic.

    Personally I thought it's the nominative because robots is the subject and I don't see anything special.

    Therefor it ought to be роботи


    Anyone?
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почётный участник Sergey_'s Avatar
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    The Accusative Case
    Accusative Case of Russian Nouns

    The principal meaning of the accusative is to designate a person or thing to whom or which and action is being done. For example: Люся любит брата (Lucy loves her brother); Мы видим море (We see the sea); Инженер собирает роботов.

    Though i'm not sure whether роботы is animate

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Yep, it is Accusative. For some reason робот in Russian is mostly treated as grammatically animate.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Ohh I perfectly understand now. Thank you!
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Yep, it is Accusative. For some reason робот in Russian is mostly treated as grammatically animate.
    Yes, we have some strange rules for the grammatical animacy.
    "Покойник" (the deceased) and "мертвец" (dead man) are animate: Он увидел покойника. Он увидел мертвеца. But "труп" (corpse) is inanimate: Он увидел труп.
    "Микроб" (microbe) is usually animate: Мыло убивает микробов. "Бактерия" (bacterium) and "вирус" (virus) are usually inanimate: Мыло убивает бактерии. Мыло убивает вирусы.

    And yes, "робот" is animate. I think that is because robots first appeared in science fiction, and they were described as human-like creations.

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    Увлечённый спикер mudrets's Avatar
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    Does "animate" mean "living" or "animated"?

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    Living

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Я хочу стать _______ (инженер) , буду целый день собирать ________ (робот)
    Is it from a Chinese book?

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    If проспать is oversleep, does it mean "про" is the equivalent to "over"

    If проспать is oversleep, does it mean "про" is the equivalent to "over"

    Such as "пропить" - overdrink?
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Russian verb prefixes are in some sense equivalents of English prepositions after verbs.

    Most often prefix про- is an equivalent of preposition through.
    проспать - to sleep through the event. (To miss the event because of sleeping.)
    пропить - to drink through smth. (To lose smth. because of drinking.)
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    it's not clearcut therefore i'd not advise to attribute any fixed mode to the prefixes

    for example how would you translate "прописать" ? obviously not overwrite
    overwrite is переписать
    as "overdo" is not проделать, but переборщить

    for the sake of the discussion oversleep can be translated as переспать that is 'to sleep a little too long, over the expected amount of time'.

    проспать is also 'to sleep through' if it means 'to sleep during a certain event' like 'he slept through the entire episode' - 'он проспал всю серию'

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Ahh...so

    про - through
    пере - over

    Understood

    Much appreciated
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    knowing German i believe can help to wrap one's head around Russian prefixes with greater ease

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Valda -- I'd also point out such verbs as пройти ("to go past") and пропускать ("to let pass by", in several senses).

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    пропускать is interesting. So if someone is blocking the way I can tell him можно пропускать?
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    пропускать is interesting. So if someone is blocking the way I can tell him можно пропускать?
    in this case you'd politely say "можно пройти?" or rudely "пропустите!"

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Heh, thaks I'll stay polite. But, always good to know the rude version, just in case.

    Problem is that according to masterussian grammar guide, "про" is also used for future tense!

    She will read }
    She will have read } Она прочитает

    So про is for "through" in certain words mean will read? I thought it means "read through", according to your example. What gives? Grammar inconsistencies?


    I would also add that I know that we can use prefixes to make words into future tense*, but those prefixes for future appear to vary


    Я постараюсь - I will try
    Я сделаю - I will do

    See! In the first one it's "по", and in the second one it's "с" for our future tense prefixes (and in the example above we even have "про" for future tense). Is it normally irregular like that?


    *I realize I can just use будут, but I prefer to learn the second way
    **Note that most Russian guides, even the one on masterussian.com (first russian when I google "russian future tense" ), do not say anything about what future prefixes are possible and which ones I can use
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Heh, thaks I'll stay polite. But, always good to know the rude version, just in case.

    Problem is that according to masterussian grammar guide, "про" is also used for future tense!

    She will read }
    She will have read } Она прочитает

    So про is for "through" in certain words mean will read? I thought it means "read through", according to your example. What gives? Grammar inconsistencies?
    russian grammar thrives on inconsistencies, i believe you need to just stop looking for logic in it

    the prefix "про" denotes completeness of action therefore in the future tense она прочитает means she will be finished reading, she will have read through
    another prefix "по" denotes an incomplete action, a try at it, therefore for the future tense you could use она почитает - she will have read a little
    both these forms are perfective

    however the usual meaning of this phrase isn't that strict, both simply mean she will read
    from English into Russian it would be translated according to the context

    that said, for both words the present singular 3d person form is читает but the verb indefinite form can receive the prefix as in прочитать and почитать

    as soon as you add prefixes про and по to the verb читать in the present form it turns into its future tense form

    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post

    I would also add that I know that we can use prefixes to make words into future tense*, but those prefixes for future appear to vary


    Я постараюсь - I will try
    Я сделаю - I will do

    See! In the first one it's "по", and in the second one it's "с" for our future tense prefixes (and in the example above we even have "про" for future tense). Is it normally irregular like that?
    see? yes it is, you need to just memorize it or feel it out

    often the prefix in the future tense is selected on the basis of the semantics you wish to convey

    я делаю - я сделаю - я проделаю - я поделаю

    я знаю - я узнАю - я прознАю

    я сижу - я посижу - я просижу

    я играюсь - я поиграюсь - я наиграюсь

    also prefixes used in the future tense often do not exist or rarely used for the same words in their present tense form, like наигрываюсь, постарываюсь, с(о)делываю, поделываю (archaic), почитываю (archaic)


    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    *I realize I can just use будут, but I prefer to learn the second way
    **Note that most Russian guides, even the one on masterussian.com (first russian when I google "russian future tense" ), do not say anything about what future prefixes are possible and which ones I can use

    forming future tense through the verb быть always results in the imperfective form, whereas the prefixes without быть always give the perfective one


    sorry about the messy explanation

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    Властелин Valda's Avatar
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    Not messy, I'm satisfied And appreciate it.

    я делаю - я сделаю - я проделаю - я поделаю
    Wow, the many ways you can say this word to slightly alter its definition....

    Thanks for the enlightenment
    "Особенно упорно надо заниматься тем, кто ничего не знает." - Като Ломб

    "В один прекрасный день все ваши подспудные знания хлынут наружу. Ощущения при этом замечательные, уверяю вас." -Кто-то

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valda View Post
    Not messy, I'm satisfied And appreciate it.



    Wow, the many ways you can say this word to slightly alter its definition....

    Thanks for the enlightenment
    to clarify a bit, prefixes aren't always compatible with the described action and the objective complement, e.g.

    я делаю уроки - я сделаю уроки but not я проделаю уроки

    however other lexical units are more acceptive

    я делаю упражнение (физическое) - я сделаю упражнение - я проделаю упражнение

    in this case prefix про- is acceptable because an exercise is a sequence of postures which you gradually go through

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