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Thread: "old genetive" ?

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    "old genetive" ?

    "Россию ждут мощные землетрясения" http://news.rambler.ru/Russia/r/5558641/14696291/
    I'm well aware of the fact that ждать is usually used w/ genetive - looks like there's some kinda different situations asking for the accusative, obviously -
    ???

    Thanks for your input/explanations on my somewhat weird grammar *blackout*
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    Re: "old genetive" ?

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by krobatshov
    "Россию ждут мощные землетрясения" http://news.rambler.ru/Russia/r/5558641/14696291/
    I'm well aware of the fact that ждать is usually used w/ genetive - looks like there's some kinda different situations asking for the accusative, obviously -
    ???

    Thanks for your input/explanations on my somewhat weird grammar *blackout*
    I don't see anything unusual in that sentence. When it's "There is something before someone in the future", it's always the accusative.

    Меня ждут дела.
    Ничего хорошего его не ждёт.
    Его соседку ждёт тюрьма.
    Америку ждут перемены.


    These all are accusative.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    The statement that ждать takes the genitive is outdated. Most of the time it takes accusative.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Really? All of my textbooks say that "ждать" takes the accusative case when waiting for an animate object, and the genitive case when waiting for something inanimate.

    ie,
    Я жду вашего ответа. (genitive)
    Я жду своего брата. (accusative)

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Don't mix up here

    Я жду брата - Nominative + verb + genitive
    Меня ждут дела - Accusative + verb + nominative

    It's like an inverted, or passive form. Like: I have something to do; and something needs to be done.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p
    Don't mix up here
    Я жду брата - Nominative + verb + genitive
    Actually, it's the accusative here. If you replace the brother by a sister you will instantly figure it out.
    Налево пойдёшь - коня потеряешь, направо пойдёшь - сам голову сложишь.
    Прямой путь не предлагать!

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p
    Я жду брата - Nominative + verb + genitive
    Ты вряд ли сказал бы «Я жду сестры», так что это скорее внимательный падеж. Нет?

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zubr
    Ты вряд ли сказал бы «Я жду сестры», так что это скорее в[s:4cyc3mns]нима[/s:4cyc3mns]инительный падеж. Нет?
    Угу. А вот когда "я не жду сестры" - это обратно родительный.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Really? All of my textbooks say that "ждать" takes the accusative case when waiting for an animate object, and the genitive case when waiting for something inanimate.

    ie,
    Я жду вашего ответа. (genitive)
    Я жду своего брата. (accusative)
    That's correct. But not a complete statement, I think.

    I would say when talking about a country as a whole it behaves as animate in this case:
    Я жду сестру. - Acc.
    Все страны, кроме Америки, уже проголосовали. Все ждут Америку. - Acc.
    Мы ждём Россию. - Acc.

    And again, it was also correct that accusative is always required when "ждать" is used in sense of some future predictions: Землю ждут несчастья. Новые проблемы ждут нашу планету. Москву ждёт жара. etc.

    So, there are just more specific rules.

    I am also not sure what would be a correct form in case of
    Я жду весну. VS Я жду весны. For me, the both versions sound good enough, the second one seems to be a bit bookish. Other opinions?

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene-p
    Don't mix up here

    Я жду брата - Nominative + verb + genitive
    It's accusative. Try to say "Я жду папы". Should be "папу"; it's accusative.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    It's accusative. Try to say "Я жду папы". Should be "папу"; it's accusative.
    Oops :fool"
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by krobatshov
    "Россию ждут мощные землетрясения"
    I'm well aware of the fact that ждать is usually used w/ genetive - looks like there's some kinda different situations asking for the accusative
    Alright, so think first how you'd say that in English.

    1. I'm waiting for my brother. <=> My brother is waiting for me.

    vs.

    2. [sdnlicdw]Russia is waiting for the mighty earthquakes.[/sdnlicdw] => Mighty earthquakes await Russia.

    So, I believe it's the word order that had confused you. Basically:

    Россию ждут мощные землетрясения. = Мощные землетрясения ожидают/ждут Россию.

    As a result, it's the word "Россия" that gets declined and not "землетрясения".

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    И всё же это ждательный падеж. Прочитайте ссылку, данную vox05; там всё подробно описано и про «жду письма» и про «жду папу»:
    http://www.lyubertsy.ru/page-al-hitrye_ ... azyka.html

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SAn
    И всё же это ждательный падеж.
    Ну, как-то пока обходились без него. Не будем множить сущностей.

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile
    Quote Originally Posted by SAn
    И всё же это ждательный падеж.
    Ну, как-то пока обходились без него. Не будем множить сущностей.
    Иногда лучше умножить, чем произвольно распихивать в разные категории, потому что нужной не оказалось. Местный падеж тоже не будем множить? В лЕсе, так сказать, родилась елочка и в лесе росла... Или даже так - "в лесу", это, очевидно, дательный, с ударением на первый слог, ну а то что в множественном числе получится "в лесам родились елочки" - это глюк, не обращать внимания.
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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile
    2. [s:mxd0px2m]Russia is waiting for the mighty earthquakes.[/s:mxd0px2m] => Mighty earthquakes await Russia.
    Although both of these sentences are grammatically correct, as a matter of style , I think the first sentence is slightly better, because to me it sounds strange to "personify" earthquakes, as in the second sentence. Earthquakes have no concrete existence -- you can personify the earth itself, but if the earth is seen as a person, then earthquakes ought to be seen as behavior of the earth, like a child's tantrum. One can say, for example, "Mt. Fuji is waiting to explode", but "A volcanic eruption awaits Japan" falls badly on the ear.

    To express the idea in the first sentence, either of these two seem most natural to me

    Russia can expect major earthquakes (within the next 500 years, as a geological likelihood).
    Russia is expecting major earthquakes (possibly within days or weeks).

    Using "can" in the first sentence emphasizes that the danger is not necessarily in the near future, although it is inevitable in the long term. Cf. "We can expect that the Yellowstone supervolcano will erupt within the next 10,000 years." The progressive present tense in the second example emphasizes that seismologists have already detected warning signs of an approaching earthquake, and disaster-preparation must begin immediately.

    If you want to make earthquakes the subject of the sentence, I would suggest, instead of "earthquakes await Russia":

    Major earthquakes are in store for Russia.
    Major earthquakes lie ahead for Russia.

    P.S. By the way, "major" or "massive" or "severe" are the adjectives most often used to describe strong earthquakes. "Mighty", in general, is a rather poetic word that often seems out of place and even a bit манерно in colloquial speech (except when used as a slang intensifier with the meaning "very" -- as in "Wow, this is mighty good pizza!", or "Damn, she's got mighty fine legs!"). And to call an earthquake "mighty" creates the vague impression that you are blaming the disaster on an angry pagan god. Thus, "a mighty earthquake" would be the perfect phrase to use if you were writing dialogue for a movie about superstitious villagers in pre-modern times, but it sounds odd otherwise.
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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Russia lies ahead in store for major earthquakes.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Thanks all - Looks like I've forgotten about the animate vs. inanimate thing about this word in particular - Unlike other words I used to be concerned with- words dealing with one case -- this one got two versions of it

    Considering a whole nation being animate sounds reasonable to me - therefore, the use of accusative cases does make sense

    Nevertheless, it seems that some cases still seem to be worth discussing about it - as the amount of replies on my thread proof ^^
    Thanks again for all the input, links and explanations -
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    Re: "old genetive" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by krobatshov
    Thanks all - Looks like I've forgotten about the animate vs. inanimate thing about this word in particular

    Considering a whole nation being animate sounds reasonable to me - therefore, the use of accusative cases does make sense
    It's not that much about animate vs. inanimate things here; it's exactly the case when it's about some "close events in the future". Here's a couple of examples with inanimate things, in the same construction:

    Этот театр ждут большие перемены. (accusative)
    Эту комнату ждёт большая уборка. (accusative)
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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