Thread: A few questions about the instrumental

Hi there, I'm just starting out learning Russian but I like to be as precise as possible when I can and the book I'm using is leaving a few things out.

First of all, when using "с" with the instrumental, when do I change it to "со"? The book says "in front of some words beginning with consonant clusters" but doesn't get any better than that. Which consonant clusters require the added о? Or is there no reliable rule?

Secondly, I know that predicate nouns take the instrumental whenever the past and future of быть is used, but when do predicate ADJECTIVES take the instrumental? My book again just says "sometimes."

Thanks!

PS: My Russian is not nearly good enough to understand any replies in Russian... sorry.

Edit: and one more. when exactly are you supposed to add н before third person pronouns that are the objects of preopositions? My book isn't really clear on it but it sort of hints that you do it when they're declined. Is that right?

Originally Posted by dawhite

Hi there, I'm just starting out learning Russian but I like to be as precise as possible when I can and the book I'm using is leaving a few things out.

First of all, when using "с" with the instrumental, when do I change it to "со"? The book says "in front of some words beginning with consonant clusters" but doesn't get any better than that. Which consonant clusters require the added о? Or is there no reliable rule?

Secondly, I know that predicate nouns take the instrumental whenever the past and future of быть is used, but when do predicate ADJECTIVES take the instrumental? My book again just says "sometimes."

Thanks!

PS: My Russian is not nearly good enough to understand any replies in Russian... sorry.

Edit: and one more. when exactly are you supposed to add н before third person pronouns that are the objects of preopositions? My book isn't really clear on it but it sort of hints that you do it when they're declined. Is that right?

As for constant clusters, it's normally instinctive and you simply need to read it out loud in order to grasp it.

1. Normally occurs in words that start with с and another consonant, e.g. cо страданием. (But if the word starts with "с" and a vowel, the preposition "с" remains that way. E.g. с собой, с сумкой.. etc)
2. With consonant cluster that require a "stop" in order to pronounce the second consonant, e.g. cо мной, со всеми.
3. BUT if the two consonants 'flow' (as in they are pronounced with no "stopping"), "с" is used E.g. с трудом.


Быть in the past and future sometimes retain the nominative if it was something permanent. E.g. Мой отец был русский (my dad was Russian). In this case, however, он был русским, according to my friend, is still possible. For the most part, it takes the instrumental, so just stick to that for the time being.
Edit: I noticed that in narratives (stories.. etc) the nominative case is retaied with the past for of быть.

"Н" attaches to ANY third person personal pronouns, singular or plural, that is not in the nominative case, so long as it's preceded by an preposition. e.g. От него, с ними, из-зя неё, под ним, о нем, к ней.. etc.

Hope that helped.

Yes, that helped a lot! Thanks for clearing everything up.

Originally Posted by Yazeed

из-за неё,

Originally Posted by Yazeed

"Н" attaches to ANY third person personal pronouns, singular or plural, that is not in the nominative case, so long as it's preceded by an preposition. e.g. От него, с ними, из-зя неё, под ним, о нем, к ней.. etc.

a small note: the nominative case is never preceded by a preposition anyway

Originally Posted by Indra

a small note: the nominative case is never preceded by a preposition anyway

Yes it does. e.g. "что за книга?"

But yeah, it's only in that case that the nominative has a preposition.

(учитель): Нет ни одного языка, в котором употребление двойного подтверждения являлось отрицанием.
(студент. скептически-язвительным тоном): Ну да, конечно!

"Н" attaches to ANY third person personal pronouns, singular or plural, that is not in the nominative case, so long as it's preceded by an preposition. e.g. От него, с ними, из-зя неё, под ним, о нем, к ней.. etc.

Я неожиданно озадачилась тем же вопросом и хочу спросить совета у уважаемых русскоговорящих товарищей Ставится ли "н" в случае родительного падежа без предлога?

часть меня
часть тебя
часть (н)его?

Originally Posted by Indra

"Н" attaches to ANY third person personal pronouns, singular or plural, that is not in the nominative case, so long as it's preceded by an preposition. e.g. От него, с ними, из-зя неё, под ним, о нем, к ней.. etc.

Я неожиданно озадачилась тем же вопросом и хочу спросить совета у уважаемых русскоговорящих товарищей Ставится ли "н" в случае родительного падежа без предлога?

часть меня
часть тебя
часть (н)его?

Даже не знаю точно, так как обычно говорят "его часть".

Вообще по-моему в русском личные местоимения в родительном падеже без предлога используются только с "нет" и в некоторых устойчивых выражениях. В остальных случаях используются притяжательные местоимения.

на грамоте.ру ответили:

Нет, формы местоимений с начальным Н употребляются после некоторых предлогов и после форм сравнительной степени. Правильно: часть его.


Раз "некоторых предлогов", то должны быть такие предлоги, после которых "н" не ставится?

Originally Posted by pisces

Вообще по-моему в русском личные местоимения в родительном падеже без предлога используются только с "нет" и в некоторых устойчивых выражениях. В остальных случаях используются притяжательные местоимения.

А как же партитивный родительный?