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Thread: Colloquial (?) structure I don't quite get

  1. #1
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Colloquial (?) structure I don't quite get

    I have come across the following sentences:

    Уснуть так и не уснул.
    Поймать так и не поймал.
    Вернуться так и не вернулся.
    How exactly am I supposed to understand these phrases, how do they translate?
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Yes, colloquial and a little bit archaic maybe.

    Уснуть так и не уснул.
    Let us separate two constructions: "так и не", which is complicated by itself, and "verb infinitive + same verb in any other form".

    The second is just an intensive one (the way to emphasize) and used mainly in contrapositions.

    Уснуть - уснул, но не отдохнул.
    As for sleeping, I did it, but was unable to relax.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    I think it can mean "never."
    I wanted to fall asleep but never did.
    " " ...to catch (something?) " ".
    ..return ...
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

  4. #4
    Старший оракул
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    How exactly am I supposed to understand these phrases,
    The general meaning is easy to get - just throw out the infinitive.

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    Почтенный гражданин oldboy's Avatar
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    bitpicker
    Глагол
    в форме инфинитива в таких конструкциях говорит о том, что человек сам хотел (пытался, собирался или ему нужно было) совершить это дейсвие.
    Так и не в таких конструкциях означает, что дейсвтие в итоге/в конце концов/в конечном счёте не было выполнено (так и не = но так и не = но не).

    Уснуть так и не уснул. = Хотел/Пытался уснуть, но так и не уснул. = Хотел/Пытался уснуть, но (в итоге) не уснул.

    Поймать так и не поймал. = Хотел/Пытался поймать, но так и не поймал. = Хотел/Пытался поймать, но (в итоге) не поймал.

    Вернуться так и не вернулся. = Хотел/Пытался/Собирался вернуться, но так и не вернулся. = Хотел/Пытался/Собирался вернуться, но
    (в итоге) не вернулся.
    Thanks for correcting me.

  6. #6
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Thanks, everyone, I think I get the general idea now.
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

  7. #7
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    I have found a nother example for a similar structure in the novel Дневной дозор, which is probably nothing a native speaker would think twice about but which is, as far as I see it, impossible to parse for a native speaker of German or English. Without the explanation in the previous posts I would not get it. The context is that a girl asks a witch to make her runaway lover come back, and the witch says:

    Вернуть - вернёт, но удержать - не удержит.

    A literal translation is impossible, but the meaning is something like "Bring him back, that's possible, but keep him (or: make him stay), no."

    There is no end of such seemingly small ways of expressing things which are enormously difficult for a learner to figure out without the help of a native speaker, but they never turn up in grammar books or the like.
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    "Поднять - подняли, а разбудить забыли."

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    Administrator MasterAdmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    "Поднять - подняли, а разбудить забыли."
    Haha! To help others remember the patterns I recommend to come up with more funny or weird phrases like that

    Искать - искали, найти - не нашли.

  10. #10
    Administrator MasterAdmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Вернуть - вернёт, но удержать - не удержит.
    The meaning is "He will take it back, that's possible, but he won't manage to keep it."

    The way you tranlated it will be Вернуть [его] - вернём, но удержать [его] - не удержим.

  11. #11
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Trouble is that this does not fit the context at all. The sequence is about bringing the guy back by magic, but to keep him from leaving again, more magic is needed.

    You can find it here: Дневной дозор (fb2) | Либрусек

    It's in the prologue.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Trouble is that this does not fit the context at all. The sequence is about bringing the guy back by magic, but to keep him from leaving again, more magic is needed.

    You can find it here: Дневной дозор (fb2) | Либрусек

    It's in the prologue.
    "Приворот муженька в доме вернет. Вернуть – вернет, но удержать не удержит."

    Yes, you translated it right. What exactly is wrong with the context?

    PS Wow! German guy supports book piracy! Beware, learning Russian can make you a criminal!
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  13. #13
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    If you say "you", do you mean me or MasterAdmin? And I only referenced this version for simplicity, though I do read it at work, but I have a real, honest-to-goodness copy of the book at home which I bought with real money. I could even be photographed with it. Just not at my workplace.

    But I do agree that безплатно is an exceedingly useful search term. Actually I respect copyright very much, but in some cases our regular copyright is insane. For example, while I may be able to see the newest video content issued by a band or a label in their own channels on Youtube, clicking on an old video in the same channel more often than not yields a message like "this content belongs to Sony / BMG ... and is not available in your country". I mean, if neither band nor label may make their advertising material public, where's the sense in this? It's not as if videos were something you'd go and buy in a shop.
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

  14. #14
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    If you say "you", do you mean me or MasterAdmin?
    I mean your treatment of that phrase: "The sequence is about bringing the guy back by magic, but to keep him from leaving again, more magic is needed." It is OK. Why do you say that "this does not fit the context at all"?

    And I only referenced this version for simplicity, though I do read it at work, but I have a real, honest-to-goodness copy of the book at home which I bought with real money. I could even be photographed with it. Just not at my workplace.
    Opps! Looks like you still have much to learn in Russian...

    But I do agree that беcплатно is an exceedingly useful search term. Actually I respect copyright very much, but in some cases
    our regular copyright is insane. For example, while I may be able to see the newest video content issued by a band or a label in their own channels on Youtube, clicking on an old video in the same channel more often than not yields a message like "this content belongs to Sony / BMG ... and is not available in your country". I mean, if neither band nor label may make their advertising material public, where's the sense in this? It's not as if videos were something you'd go and buy in a shop.
    ... but you already have a good start.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  15. #15
    Administrator MasterAdmin's Avatar
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    The context is about "приворот" (love spell). So the translation will be "[the love spell] will bring him back, that's possible, but it won't keep him."

  16. #16
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Right, that clears it up. I had thought it was in reference to the man, not the potion. Therefore "bring him back" did not fit the context as I -incorrectly- perceived it.

    Looks like you still have much to learn in Russian...
    Even though I'm sure it's a joke here it's also very true.
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

  17. #17
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    "Поднять - подняли, а разбудить забыли."
    Здесь поднять значит подняли с постели/кровати, заставили встать с постели/кровати.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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