Thread: bloody confusing word order!

Originally Posted by chaika

Mr. pranki said above, "doesn't play an important part in Russian."

OK, you're right. But usually this additional sense is very insignificant and can be ignored. I admit each variant of phrase "Фамилия ..." has its own nuance, but these nuances are very unnoticeable. Actually, many of Russians really don't notice such nuances. Your example is very simple and clear. But, for instance, I can't say what is the difference between "Фамилия твоя мне не нравится" and "Не нравится мне твоя фамилия".

As for "doesn't play an important part in Russian", I mean word order doesn't play an important part in contrast to English I'd say it's logical stress and intonation which play an important role in Russian, not word order itself. And often different word orders just help to express different logical stresses. If you change word order but don't support it with intonation and logical stress, you don't change meaning noticeably.

Originally Posted by pranki

But, for instance, I can't say what the difference is between "Фамилия твоя мне не нравится" and "Не нравится мне твоя фамилия".

pranki, yes I agree, but you are forgetting about the written word. No intonation there, unless you are assuming that the reader will be mentally adding their own intonations! Lots of stuff you can convey with unusual devices, and sometimes not even that.

сия словеса написалъ Давидъ.

Студента могут мотивировать только деньги

another example I just read in the paper

You have to read the whole sentence to understand the meaning!!! Difficult!
Why is the subject at the very end?

While in english, you get to learn what's going on as your read..

The student is only motivated by money

Студента могут мотивировать только деньги

You can translate this sentence as follows:

The only thing that can motivate a student is money.
Something that can motivate a student is only money.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Студента могут мотивировать только деньги

Only money can motivate a student.

I disagree with this statement.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

I disagree with this statement.

I agree with your disagreement! The other motivation is sex

Originally Posted by pranki

Originally Posted by kwatts59

I disagree with this statement.

I agree with your disagreement! The other motivation is sex

The third motivation is a Ferrari!

Originally Posted by samurai

The third motivation is a Ferrari!

Oh, it equals to money

Originally Posted by pranki

Originally Posted by samurai

The third motivation is a Ferrari!

Oh, it equals to money

It couldn't be, considering the Ferrari a gift from your father for having achieve degree! "WOW, thank you Daddy!"

Originally Posted by Mordan

Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит......

when I first read this, i was like " WTF!@!# I don't understand!

When we speak such phrases we stress certain words and the phrase has some special tint. (We got it from spoken Russian, where we relate a certain phrase (words order) with our emotions).

let's mark phrasal stress with ' and a chunk with []

[Tвоя] '[фамилия] [ни о чём] [мне] [не говорит]. - normal
[Tвоя] '[фамилия] [мне] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - normal
'[Фамилия] [мне] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "yours"

'[Мне] [твоя] [фамилия] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "me"

'[Мне] [фамилия] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "me" and "yours"

You can hear such stresses in spoken versions.
And you can use all variants possible with those chunks. Some of them will be a bit awkward, but they can be smoothed with the tone and stress of your voice.

You should try studying Russian poetry. To stick to the rhyme and meter the word order is even more "junmbled" than Mordan's example.

Originally Posted by TATY

You should try studying Russian poetry. To stick to the rhyme and meter the word order is even more "junmbled" than Mordan's example.

In Spoken English they also may change the words order.

doesn't ring a bell... your family name, I mean

In Russian we have the freedom to say what's coming to our mind first.
We can construct a phrase while we are speaking.
In English we need to compile a phrase before speaking.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

LOL

What about

Твоя ни о чём не мне говорит фамилия.

отрицание НЕ не может быть перенесено,
в противном случае мы читаем
"не мне"

Originally Posted by garans

Originally Posted by Mordan

Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит......

when I first read this, i was like " WTF!@!# I don't understand!

When we speak such phrases we stress certain words and the phrase has s
'[Фамилия] [мне] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "yours"

Это не так,

'[Фамилия] [мне] '[твоя] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "ME"
'[Фамилия] [твоя] '[мне] [ни о чём] [не говорит]. - stress on "yours"

Originally Posted by Mordan

Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит......

when I first read this, i was like " WTF!@!# I don't understand!

Words order doesn't matter grammatically, but then, depending on the context, you may rearrange words in such a way to stress some of them more. It's like fine tuning.
Фамилия мне твоя ни о чем не говорит -
the word Фамилия is stressed
Ни о чем мне твоя фамилия не говорит
- the accent is on the fact that surname DOESN'T say anything about you

Мне твоя фамилия ни о чём не говорит - stressed is the fact than I MYSELF don't know anything about you

Typically the word order in such sentences help to stress some aspects of the meaning.

I did my best to explain. Hope this will help.

The word order DOES play an imortant role in Russian, especially in written form, where you cannot hear actual logical stresses. In written Russian what is known (linguists call it "theme, thema") usually goes forward, and what is new ("rhema") goes in the end. In spoken language the order is often absolutely inverse, people tend to tell new and important information in the first place, but there are intonation sresses also.

So
Студента могут мотивировать только деньги. It means that Only money may motivate a student (not busienessman, worker, teacher etc.)

Только деньги могут мотивировать студента = Only money (not a promotion, interest or whatever) may motivate a student.

Мне не нравится твоя фамилия = I don't like your family name.
Фамилия мне твоя не нравится = spoken intonation, something like Your family name...well, I don't like IT!