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Thread: adverbial participles (difficult question)

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    adverbial participles (difficult question)

    привет

    In Russian there are three “adverbial participles”. In order to simplify my question I will use the verb отправлять / отправить:
    1. The present adverbial participle of the imperfective verb is: отправля́я
    2. The past adverbial participle of the imperfective verb is: отправля́в
    3. The past adverbial participle of the perfective verb : отпра́вив

    In all cases the translation in English is “sending” e.g. He left the house sending the message i.e. While he was sending the message he left the house.
    As I understood the отправля́я is used in present expressions e.g. He is leaving the house sending the message.
    I didn’t understand what is the difference between отправля́в and отпра́вив. Even in Greek these two are exactly the same.

    пожалуйста напишите мне один например. Если вы хотите использовать один другой глагол.
    спасибо.

  2. #2
    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    del.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

  3. #3
    kib
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    Он выходил из дома, отправляв письмо
    Эй-эй, ты что такое говоришь - НЕТ такого слова отправляв!
    Я изучаю английский язык и поэтому делаю много ошибок. Но я не прошу Вас исправлять их, Вы можете просто ткнуть меня носом в них, или, точнее, пихнуть их мне в глаза. I'm studying English, and that's why I make a lot of mistakes. But I do not ask you to correct them, you may just stick my nose into them or more exactly stick them into my eyes.
    Всё, что не делается, не всегда делается к лучшему
    Но так же не всегда всё, что не делается, не делается не к худшему. : D

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Okay,
    Он вышел из дома, отправив письмо ----- He left the house after he had sent the letter or He left the house after sending the letter (отправив --- completed action already)
    Он выходил/выходит/будет выходить из дома, отправляя письмо ------ He was/is/will be/ leaving the house while sending the letter (two simultaneous actions) (отправляя --- the action is still in the proccess)
    Он выходил из дома, отправляв письмо ------ He was leaving the house while sending the letter (two simultaneous actions as well) (отправляв --- the action was still in the proccess at some moment in the past)

    About the last example, I don't even think one can use the word отправляв, because I'm not sure it's the word at all. Он выходил из дома, отправляв письмо just sounds really strange. I personally would say Он выходил из дома, отправляя письмо.

    So I just showed you what the word отправляв would be if it's a word.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kib View Post
    Эй-эй, ты что такое говоришь - НЕТ такого слова отправляв!
    Да, да, каюсь. Жаль, что вы это написали в то время, когда я редактировал свой пост.


    А по теме, слова отправляв нет и быть не может:

    Деепричастие --- совершенный (что сделав?) и несовершенный (что делая?) виды.

    Первый случай, ЧТО СДЕЛАВ? --- отправив
    Второй случай, ЧТО ДЕЛАЯ? --- отправляя

    Третьего не дано
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

  6. #6
    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    And for Antonio

    There're two (not three) “adverbial participles”

    1) The present adverbial participle of the imperfective verb is отправляя
    2) The past adverbial participle of the perfective verb : отправив

    1) while doing what? ---- отправляя ---- while sending
    2) having done what? ---- отправив ---- after sending or having sent
    Throbert McGee and krwright like this.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Past adverbial participles of imperfective verbs is a quite rare phenomenon in Russian. Virtually you can make it from almost any imperfective verb but in fact they are mostly not used.

    I found an example though
    "Не знав благодати, я Бога не знал." - literally "While I didn't know, Grace I didn't know God."
    Perfective: "Узнав адрес, я смог послать письмо." - "After I got the address, I was able to send a letter. "

    In the first sentence actions are simultaneous: I didn't know God at the same time as I didn't know Grace.
    In the second sentence actions are consequent: one happened after another.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Lingvo знает и отправляв, и отправлявши.
    Но это не значит, что их надо использовать
    Чтобы донести мысль, что "каждый раз, рассуждая о судьбах своей Родины, Иван вспоминал Тургенева", достаточно деепричастия настоящего времени.
    Можно обойтись без "рассуждав"!
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Старший оракул
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    Точнее даже, "рассуждая" - не деепричастие настоящего времени, а деепричастие одновременности.

    В литературном РЯ деепричастия не имеют категории времени. Только вид: несовершенный - одновременность, совершенный - предшествование.

  10. #10
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    As I understood the general answer is: DO NOT USE THESE THINGS.
    For those who want to know the words are all found in Wiktionary which provides just the vetbs and not any explanations.
    отправить - Wiktionary.
    iCake based on this page you can see that the adverbial participles are three. Honestly, I don't have the slighest idea.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    As I understood the general answer is: DO NOT USE THESE THINGS.
    For those who want to know the words are all found in Wiktionary which provides just the vetbs and not any explanations.
    отправить - Wiktionary.
    iCake based on this page you can see that the adverbial participles are three. Honestly, I don't have the slighest idea.
    Thank you.
    Antoino, I've checked that link.
    The verb "отправить" is perfective. It has only one adverbial participle:
    past participle active отпра́вивший
    past participle passive отпра́вленный
    past adverbial participle отпра́вив, отпра́вивши
    Where did you find three? "отправивший" and "отправленный" are not adverbial participles! They are just participles (behaving like adjectives).

    However, there is a slight mistake there. It should not be "past adverbial participle", it should be just "perfective adverbial participle".


    Now, let's check its imperfective pair "отправлять" отправлять - Wiktionary:

    present participle active отправля́ющий
    present participle passive отправля́емый
    present adverbial participle отправля́я
    This part is correct! With the exception that they should have written "imperfective adverbial participle" instead of the "present adverbial participle". But it's a question of terminology, though.

    It has one more part for the past tense:
    past participle active отправля́вший
    past participle passive
    past adverbial participle отправля́в, отправля́вши

    The forms "отправляв" and "отправлявши" are not a part of the standard literary Russian, although they can occur in colloquial speech sometimes. I would not recommend learning them.

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    The only place where you can try to hear отправляв и отправлявши - is the deepest countryside.
    Really strange question 'cause I can't imagine imperfect form of adverbial participles in the past tense at all...

  13. #13
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Okay,
    Он вышел из дома, отправив письмо ----- He left the house after he had sent the letter or He left the house after sending the letter (отправив --- completed action already)
    Он выходил/выходит/будет выходить из дома, отправляя письмо ------ He was/is/will be/ leaving the house while sending the letter (two simultaneous actions) (отправляя --- the action is still in the proccess)
    Он выходил из дома, отправляв письмо ------ He was leaving the house while sending the letter (two simultaneous actions as well) (отправляв --- the action was still in the proccess at some moment in the past)

    About the last example, I don't even think one can use the word отправляв, because I'm not sure it's the word at all. Он выходил из дома, отправляв письмо just sounds really strange. I personally would say Он выходил из дома, отправляя письмо.

    So I just showed you what the word отправляв would be if it's a word.
    I don't enjoy bringing up the same issues on and on but when the topic is difficult I don't have an alternative.
    I found the expression: "She run on me, asking for help".
    I have to choose from three adverbial participles which is the most suitable for this expression: прося, просив, попросив .
    Based on what you said I have the three following alternatives and an attempt of translation
    1. Она вбежала ко мне, прося помощи = She run on me, (while) asking for help. This it means that she was running on me and at the same time asking for help. As iCake mentioned this is for two simultaneous actions
    2. Она вбежала ко мне, просив помощи = This adverbial participle as I understood it is not used in Russian (I found it in all tables of Wiktionary for the majority of verbs), so I will not give a try to translate it.
    3. Она вбежала ко мне, попросив помощи = She run on me, (after) asking for help. This does not make sence based on your explanation iCake and I shouldn't use it. Correct?
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  14. #14
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Ага,
    #1 is correct
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    Because as you understand this is one of my favorite topics I will bring it back and back until I will understand its meaning.

    The maximum amount of adverbial participles (gerunds) of a verb in russian are three:
    (1) деепричастие /несовершенный вид настоящего времени: читая
    (2) деепричастие / несовершенный вид прошедшего времени: читав/читавши (here there are two forms that they mean exactly the same. I thing in contemporary russian we use читав)
    (3) деепричастие /совершенный вид прошедшего времени: прочитав/ прочитавши (here there are again two forms that the mean exactly the same. I thing in contemporary russian we use прочитав)

    What they mean:
    1. читая = reading
    2. прочитав/ прочитавши = having read
    3. читав/читавши =

    Having in mind what you said on a previous post:

    The forms "отправляв" and "отправлявши" are not a part of the standard literary Russian, although they can occur in colloquial speech sometimes. I would not recommend learning them.
    The third participle is not used in Russian!

    Examples:
    1. Работая медсестрой, она поняла, что хочет стать врачом = Working as a nurse, she understood, that she wants to become a doctor.
    --- Explanation: The two actions occur the same time
    2. Прочитав/ Прочитав письмо, она начала плакать = Having read the letter, she started crying.
    --- Explanation: The first action was completed, and immediately after the second action took place.

    Correct? (Если вам надоело анализировать эту тему можете ответить только: ДА !!!! )
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  16. #16
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    1. читая = reading
    2. прочитав/ прочитавши = having read
    3. читав/читавши =
    3. читав/читавши = reading (for the sentences in the past) - nowadays "читая" is used instead in all tenses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    Examples:
    1. Работая медсестрой, она поняла, что хочет стать врачом = Working as a nurse, she understood, that she wants to become a doctor.
    --- Explanation: The two actions occur the same time
    2. Прочитав/ Прочитав письмо, она начала плакать = Having read the letter, she started crying.
    --- Explanation: The first action was completed, and immediately after the second action took place.
    Yep...
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    "immediately" - I would not say so, only the order of events matters. But it is in line with English *Perfect* tenses:

    "Обжегшись на молоке, будешь дуть и на воду" (every time in future, when you will have to deal with hot water)
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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