Thread: 'на его месте, вы бы ещё не так заплакали!' meaning 'would have cried more'?

Again, from my Assimil book.

In general, I am having some trouble understanding why this isn't negation of the verb; I read this as '...would not have cried so much!' but the translation in the text (correct I'm sure) is '...would have cried more!' I can't find any of the other example sentences that have confused me, but I think there are a more than a few.

So why is this not 'you would not have cried so much!'? Is the lack of the double negative construction a sure sign that this is not negation?

I can't find this sort of situation in any of my books or in online explanations. Maybe I don't know what to look for...

First of all - in russian particle "не" is always applied to the next word in sentence. No exceptions.
Let me reorganize words and drop some of them, to make it more clear:
"на его месте, вы бы заплакали не так".
So, it is "...would have cried not like this". "не так" = "not like this".
Enfoced by "еще" it becomes "not like this, but more" because of context.

So it means 'not have cried like this', not (As I thought) 'not have cried so'. I was thinking of 'так' as an adverb, so that 'не' would apply to 'так заплакали' rather than just 'так'.

So "не так" in this statement is as if the speaker was turning and pointing at the baby and saying 'not like this'.

If that was me speaking, I'd have wanted to say "вы бы не так заплакали, но еще!" I've underlined the words that (for an English person) would be the ones we would emphasise vocally, although I think we English tend to use tone to emphasise things more than Russians?

How would one say 'You would not have cried so much'? (Which was how I translated the original sentence.)

Thanks for your help on this, I'll try not to wear you out with too many questions...

Maybe I use "not" particle in english wrong sometimes. I think it is confusing for both sides. Just couple of examples to demonstrate russian style:
"Я хочу это" = "I want it"
"Не я хочу это" = "(It is not me who) wants it"
"Я не хочу это" = "I do not want it"
"Я хочу не это" = "I want (something, but) not it". It this last sentence correct? As I see "I want not it" is wrong. To be more clear: "I want something, but I do not want this particular thing".

> So "не так" in this statement is as if the speaker was turning and pointing at the baby and saying 'not like this'.
Yes.

> I'd have wanted to say "вы бы не так заплакали, но еще!"
"вы бы не так заплакали, но еще сильнее!" is more correct. "Еще" is hard particle.

> although I think we English tend to use tone to emphasise things more than Russians?
I do not think so. Because of free order of words in sentence we use tone often. You are correct - "not (word)" is stressed and "еще" too.

> How would one say 'You would not have cried so much'?
I think "Ты бы так сильно/много не плакал".

I haven't noticed you using 'not' in a wrong way, all your examples above are correct.
There's a lot in this sentence, I think I'll need to revisit this discussion a few times before I know where I am with it. So much to learn!

I want to notice one more time: in russian particle "не-" negates next word and (it is important) other words stay intact. As I said, rules for "not-" in english for me were confusing in some way.
Let's look one more time:
"Не я хочу это" = "(It is not me who) wants it" ("want it" stay intact. sentence has information that something else "want it")
"Я не хочу это" = "I do not want it" ("I ... it" stay intact, but it is the same as in english)
"Я хочу не это" = "I want (something, but) not it" or "I want something else" ("I want" stay intact. sentence has information that there is something else what you want)

This is important, because there is a little difference, for example, between:
"вы бы не так заплакали"
"вы бы так не заплакали"
By the fact it is the same idea. But there is some shift of accents.
"вы бы так не заплакали" = "cry" is negated. so... "if you will have to cry, you will not do it like this"
"вы бы не так заплакали" = "like this" is negated. "if you will have to cry, you will do it in other way"
The meaning is identical, in this case, but these are different phrases. You should notice it. This difference - which word is negated - can be very important.

I will certainly try to remember and use what you've said about 'не'.

That's a subtle change of meaning between the two statements, ("вы бы так не заплакали" and"вы бы не так заплакали") I can see that here, but I think it would be difficult for me to see if I found it elsewhere. Maybe with a lot of practice.

Also, I must remember that 'так' means 'so' or 'like that' in English, but it does NOT mean 'very much' (this is the other meaning of 'so' in English.) At least, not in this case.

But I think that 'так' does seem to mean 'very much' in some sentences:

'я так хотел бы с ним познакомиться'
I read that as meaning 'I would very much like to meet him/make his acquaintance'.

In a similar way, 'еще' can mean 'still/more/again' or even 'yet' (еще не = 'not yet', or 'still not')

I think that maybe I just don't yet understand 'так' and 'еще' properly yet. Maybe I'll start a thread on that subject.

> But I think that 'так' does seem to mean 'very much' in some sentences:
> 'я так хотел бы с ним познакомиться'
Yes. "Так" has different meanings. From "word to catch attention" (like "hey!") to "much".
Interjections can be confusing. For example "мы еще не так сильны" means "we are not strong as much (as opponent/we want)". "not like, but more" changes to "not like, but less".

"not like, but more" changes to "not like, but less".
In which case, how do you know which meaning it takes in any given sentence? Is it confusing to Russians as well?

This is going to make this language more difficult to read than ever...

Originally Posted by grafrich

"not like, but more" changes to "not like, but less".
In which case, how do you know which meaning it takes in any given sentence? Is it confusing to Russians as well?

It is not confusing for russians. It is context. But it is hard to me to extract exact rules from "intuitive knowledge of native language".
I think if it used with adjective - it is "less". "Вы еще не так стары" = "You are not so old".
If it is used with verb - is is "more". "Мы еще не так сыграем (в футбол)" = "We will play (not like this, but harder) next time".
Maybe I am wrong, but I do not remember exceptions with this kind of rule.
P.S.
With verb it is enforced verb meaning. If playing was bad it means by context "we will play more bad". If playing was good it means "we will play more good".

That helps, thanks. No doubt someone knows the exact rule, but this looks good enough for me to rely on for now.