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Thread: Был transforms the predicate to the instrumental case!

  1. #1
    Почётный участник ShakeyX's Avatar
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    Был transforms the predicate to the instrumental case!

    Past tengs.jpg

    In this example, I cannot really decipher what is going on (what is the subject what is the predicate, maybe there isn't one) but in the Concert example there is a definite subject - predicate couple (Концерт - Хороший/Плохой)

    So compare with;

    Когда-нибудь это дерево станет Большим ("Big" is in the instrumental case)

    So I see no difference between the two, both are predicates (not attributive such as "A big plant" but rather predicates such as "The plant [is] big") so why is хороший not in the instrumental, after all, the concert [was] good.

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    Старший оракул Seraph's Avatar
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    Verbs that have to do with become, or in futurity to be, use instrumental. This is not the case with the simple attribute, or with 'was'.

    If you said 'I'm studying to be a doctor' you would use the instrumental for doctor.

    If you said someone was a doctor, you would not use instrumental. If you said someone was working as a doctor, that would be instrumental, I believe.

  3. #3
    Почётный участник ShakeyX's Avatar
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    It is my belief in the example "He was a doctor" that the instrumental would be used as with another examples;

    Я был ребёнком, сейчас я отец!

    I was a child, now I am a father

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    Старший оракул Seraph's Avatar
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    Oh, yes, I see what you mean. I'm not sure this is always the case. Any way, it seems there is a clear difference between these, and the general attributes, for using был.

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Yes, this is a quirk. The verb "быть" (был-есть-будет) requires instrumental for its direct object in all forms but Present tence.

    Быть врачом.
    Он был врачом.
    Он (есть) врач.
    Он будет врачом.

    I don't know why it is so.

    It is only for "быть", for example, equivalent verb "являться" requires Instrumental in all forms including Present.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Почётный участник ShakeyX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Yes, this is a quirk. The verb "быть" (был-есть-будет) requires instrumental for its direct object in all forms but Present tence.

    Быть врачом.
    Он был врачом.
    Он (есть) врач.
    Он будет врачом.

    I don't know why it is so.

    It is only for "быть", for example, equivalent verb "являться" requires Instrumental in all forms including Present.
    So in response why is the example I posted; Концерт вчера вечером был плохой! why is плохой not плохим? as we have the verb Был and a subject + participle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Yes, this is a quirk. The verb "быть" (был-есть-будет) requires instrumental for its direct object in all forms but Present tence.
    был, есть и будет есть
    just kidding

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeyX View Post
    So in response why is the example I posted; Концерт вчера вечером был плохой! why is плохой not плохим? as we have the verb Был and a subject + participle.
    you can say "плохой" and you can say "плохим", you also can say "плох"

    Концерт вчера вечером был плохой! - The yesterday's concert was bad (best choice)
    Концерт вчера вечером был плохим! - The yesterday's concert has been being bad (not a good choice for words)
    Концерт вчера вечером был плох! - The yesterday's concert was bad/wasn't good
    IMHO

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeyX View Post
    So in response why is the example I posted; Концерт вчера вечером был плохой! why is плохой not плохим? as we have the verb Был and a subject + participle.
    Hmmm... It is really very quirky. Sometimes Nominative is also possible and even preferable for был and будет. Let's see... Genitive is used to describe the property, while Nominative - to describe the equivalence.

    X был/будет Y.

    If you speak about a temporary property of a permanent object, then Genitive is preferable. Вчера огурец был зеленым, сегодня он желтый, завтра будет коричневым. (The same cucumber.) But Nominative here is also possible.
    If you speak about a temporary object, which can be replaced with a similar one in different situation, Nominative is used. Вчера день был солнечный, сегодня - облачный, завтра будет туманный. No genitive is allowed because they are different days, not the same.

    It is like the difference between Spanish verbs "ser" and "estar" if you know what they are.

    So...

    a) Концерт вчера был плохой. The concert of yesterday was bad. (But another concert will be good tomorrow.)
    b) Концерт вчера был плохим. The concert was bad yesterday. (But tomorrow that concert will be good.)

    The short form of adjective (плох) is used only as a predicate or a part of predicate and only instead of variant b).
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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