Originally Posted by
Hanna 
My point with the North Korea example was that it's not black and white.
It's not "evil". It's a country with a very unique history of being exploited in imperialism, and obliterated in one of the most destructive (to civilian society) wars ever. With a culture of Confuscian reverence to authority and leaders and emperor worship, that has morphed into the Kim Cult. Add to that a genuine zeal for socialist principles, Asian fear of losing face, and the legacy of the Cold War and you get something quite unique.
If you check the links I'll posted, you'll see countless pictures of people who qualify as "middle class" by their standards, who have jobs, live in high rise buildings, or one storey houses, have nice looking clothes, basic conveniences such as fridge and TV, and lately also desktop PCs. Certainly they have enough food to eat, are educated to a good standard and are trying to do develop their country.
American propaganda however would have you believe that any picture from North Korea that is not of a starving person or somebody in a prison camp, is "staged". Even in the metro. Every commuter on his way to work, or school child on his way to school is in a tableau for the tourists. Every North Korean TV program, trade show or visitor to the park is an actor. Seems realistic? Now, the tin-foil hat is apparently appropriate, but not when it's the US state that's under suspicion.
Lately, apparently they have an upper middle class in the larger cities who have similar consumption to an average family in developed countries, like Russia. Mobile phone, microwave, DVD player. They have a domestic cellular network, and trying to develop their own internet. They have things like gaming arcades, beach resorts, water parks and amusement parks.
There is law and order and people don't have to be worried about getting attacked in the street, raped, mugged or kidnapped - a huge problem in large parts of the world.
Everything you need for a decent life is supposed to be available, even though it probably varies a lot as to how that works in practice. Same as in countless other developing countries, but not worse.
Frankly; You could be A LOT worse off in the world today. Sub-saharan Africa! Anyone of the newly "liberated" and extremely dangerous countries in the Middle East, with 60% unemployment; Some banana republic in South/Central America. Gypsies and poor people in Romania, Central Asians who literally must leave their own countries to eat. The majority of the worlds population do not have both running water and electricity. In North Korea, it's the norm to have it, even if the service is apparently shaky.
I am sure they DO have labour camps, and I am sure that anybody who went around cursing the leadership and refusing to be part of the system would end up there. I don't agree with that, and I think they should stop it. But brutal regimes are aplenty in Africa, Central America and the Middle East.
People can also actively decide whether they commit the offenses that could land them in such a camp.
Or they can rise up to overturn the system if they really hate it. It's not like brutal regimes haven't been overthrown by their populations before!
Why should these people be considered less competent than practically all of Europe, Russia, the USA or South America who once, or at multiple times stood up for their rights? It's certainly not our responsibility "liberate" the North Koreans. Let them do what we did, and liberate themselves, if they really want it.
And what about us, today? I would quickly lose my job and be on the street if I didn't play the system (work, keep my mouth shut about certain views, behaved in a civilised manner and followed the law etc). If I made a politically incorrect statement in public, my name would be on the internet and I would be on the scrap heap for employment.
Our welfare states are nearly gone. It's each man or woman for himself. Sure we are better off than North Korea. But only superficially. They have more job security than we have, for one. Obviously it's more demanding to play along with the system there, and a less comfortable life. But there are plenty of places where the average citizen has it a lot worse than the average citizen in North Korea today.
North Koreans can't go on international holidays and they can't buy the latest and greatest gadgets, or surf the internet. And there is a certain amount of class based discrimination going on in the country.
Again: Nothing new! All of these problems, together or separately can be found in other countries. 85% of the world's population can't even afford to travel internationally or buy the latest gadgets anyway! The internet access is still below 50% of the global population.
Therefore I say; Let the people there, and the government sort themselves out. It's got nothing to do with us.
Nothing they do affects anyone outside their borders, and only an imbecil would believe that North Korea wants to start a nuclear war it could never win just because "it's EVIL".
