Thread: USA government gone rogue (well... not exactly. L.)

Originally Posted by Hanna

I can't be bothered to quarrel about North Korea with anyone. Like I said, I've been following it on and off since I visited there, 1990, so I have a better idea than most what I am talking about. Obviously I am well aware of the "concentration camp" accusations and I am not saying there isn't some truth to it. But that's by no means the full picture.

There is always one thing that makes country a "concentration camp" regardless of ideology of the regime it's freedom of travel and relocation. Not only north koreans are being refused simple right to travel and move they are being divided geografically according to social classes they belong to. All that makes the social system to look feudal.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Alex, I think you know (or maybe you don't know?) what the USA was spewing out about the Soviet Union back in those days, and that you also know from personal experience (or that of your parents) that a lot of it was pure nonsense and exaggeration. It may have had many faults but it was not 24/7 hell, as the US would have people believe, was it? And some aspects to it were good. Why should this be different? If you choose to believe they hype you are meant to, by all means! I won't stop you. I thought most people in Russia were smarter than that though. There is no black and white on things like this, and a Yeltsin in North Korea would make things even worse than today.

I know how the USSR was depicted in the west and especially in the US (i lived in the US quite a long time) and i lived in the USSR ro 20 years of my life. But that's different story. There's nothing like anti-soviet US propaganda here in Russia about north Korea.
There are a lot of north koreans here who came to work both legally and refugees. I had some chances to get information straight from the tin.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am sure you in Russia (ex USSR) for the most part wanted to change/improve of your own initiative, not have somebody else invade or dictate what you should do, because that's what the US or Western Europe thinks...

North Korea deserves the same right, doesn't it? Including the right to keep their system if they don't care enough to bring it down, or its not incompetent enough to fail on its own.

I don't deny that NK have all its rights. I just state how things are.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Just look at Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Iraq etc. That's what happens when foreign powers meddle in countries they don't understand, and don't have to live in themselves.
It does NOT get better for the population. The only effective and fair change is what a country's own population brings about. And they do, if it's bad enough. We are not God and we are not responsible for what happens in North Korea. The North Korean people are.

That's a plain eutopia.
If you are small and not in alliance with someone big then someom=ne else big will come to get his profit out of your weekness.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

There is always one thing that makes country a "concentration camp" regardless of ideology of the regime it's freedom of travel and relocation. Not only north koreans are being refused simple right to travel and move they are being divided geografically according to social classes they belong to. All that makes the social system to look feudal.

I agree that's feudal and seem primitive from a Western perspective. But at least it means they don't have a slum surrounding the capital city, and people live where they are needed and can be provided for.

However, in India, people are born into a caste, and discriminated against for the rest of their lives, based on something they can't control at all. North Koreans can apparently sometimes descend the groups, and people can move to where their spouse is. I have seen this Indian discrimination right in front of my eyes, with educated colleagues, several times. It is extremely ugly and disturbing. Apparently it's 100 times worth with the poorly educated. Additionally, the problem with malnourishment in India are worse than in North Korea, where they actually got on top of it recently. It seems to have been a problem for proportions of the population for about 8 years on and off. In India it's an ongoing issue for half the population, indefinitely.

In Saudi Arabia, half the population - women - cannot leave their own house without a black tent-like outfit covering their entire body, AND a male escort for anything but very mundane trips. Again for a reason that they can't control at all (their gender). In North Korea people can dress more or less as they want, and many women hold leadership positions.
Saudi Arabia incidentally also has a very brutal regime, on par with North Korea for punishing dissidents.

But wait - they are chums with the USA, so forgot all of this paragraph, none of it matters! It's only countries like North Korea who are not chums with the USA that we must worry about!

Additionally North Korea is a developing country that nevertheless teaches Syrians, Pakistanis, Africans and others about nuclear fission, dam construction etc; has 100% literacy; aims to deliver universal healthcare to its entire population and performs well in sports and in science competitions. You really could do a lot worse than that.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I agree that's feudal and seem primitive from a Western society. But at least it means they don't have a slum surrounding the capital city, and people live where they are needed and can be provided for.
However, in India, people are born into a caste, and discriminated against for the rest of their lives, based on something they can't control at all. North Koreans can apparently sometimes descend the groups, and people can move to where their spouse is. I have seen this Indian discrimination right in front of my eyes, with educated colleagues, several times. It is extremely ugly and disturbing. Apparently it's 100 times worth with the poorly educated. Additionally, the problem with malnourishment in India is worse than in North Korea where they actually got on top of it recently - it seems to have been a problem for proportions of the population for about 8 years on and off. In India it's an ongoing issue for half the population, indefinitely.

In Saudi Arabia, half the population - women - cannot leave their own house without a black tent-like outfit covering their entire body, AND a male escort for anything but very mundane trips. In North Korea people can dress more or less as they want, and many women hold leadership positions.
Saudi Arabia incidentally also has a very brutal regime, on par with North Korea for punishing dissidents.

Talking about NK i didn't mean there's nothing same or worse in the world. (the only difference that in india and SA those are the social traditions that last for thousand years while in NK regime is relatively recent)

Originally Posted by Hanna

But wait - they are chums with the USA, so forgot all of this paragraph, none of it matters! It's only countries like North Korea who are not chums with the USA that we must worry about!

That's what i was talking about being a smbdy's bigger ally.


P.S. But we went off topic

Now it seems like USA government not exatly 100% gone rogue ))