Thread: USA government gone rogue (well... not exactly. L.)

Originally Posted by Hanna

I can't be bothered to quarrel about North Korea with anyone. Like I said, I've been following it on and off since I visited there, 1990, so I have a better idea than most what I am talking about. Obviously I am well aware of the "concentration camp" accusations and I am not saying there isn't some truth to it. But that's by no means the full picture.

There is always one thing that makes country a "concentration camp" regardless of ideology of the regime it's freedom of travel and relocation. Not only north koreans are being refused simple right to travel and move they are being divided geografically according to social classes they belong to. All that makes the social system to look feudal.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Alex, I think you know (or maybe you don't know?) what the USA was spewing out about the Soviet Union back in those days, and that you also know from personal experience (or that of your parents) that a lot of it was pure nonsense and exaggeration. It may have had many faults but it was not 24/7 hell, as the US would have people believe, was it? And some aspects to it were good. Why should this be different? If you choose to believe they hype you are meant to, by all means! I won't stop you. I thought most people in Russia were smarter than that though. There is no black and white on things like this, and a Yeltsin in North Korea would make things even worse than today.

I know how the USSR was depicted in the west and especially in the US (i lived in the US quite a long time) and i lived in the USSR ro 20 years of my life. But that's different story. There's nothing like anti-soviet US propaganda here in Russia about north Korea.
There are a lot of north koreans here who came to work both legally and refugees. I had some chances to get information straight from the tin.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am sure you in Russia (ex USSR) for the most part wanted to change/improve of your own initiative, not have somebody else invade or dictate what you should do, because that's what the US or Western Europe thinks...

North Korea deserves the same right, doesn't it? Including the right to keep their system if they don't care enough to bring it down, or its not incompetent enough to fail on its own.

I don't deny that NK have all its rights. I just state how things are.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Just look at Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Iraq etc. That's what happens when foreign powers meddle in countries they don't understand, and don't have to live in themselves.
It does NOT get better for the population. The only effective and fair change is what a country's own population brings about. And they do, if it's bad enough. We are not God and we are not responsible for what happens in North Korea. The North Korean people are.

That's a plain eutopia.
If you are small and not in alliance with someone big then someom=ne else big will come to get his profit out of your weekness.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

There is always one thing that makes country a "concentration camp" regardless of ideology of the regime it's freedom of travel and relocation. Not only north koreans are being refused simple right to travel and move they are being divided geografically according to social classes they belong to. All that makes the social system to look feudal.

I agree that's feudal and seem primitive from a Western perspective. But at least it means they don't have a slum surrounding the capital city, and people live where they are needed and can be provided for.

However, in India, people are born into a caste, and discriminated against for the rest of their lives, based on something they can't control at all. North Koreans can apparently sometimes descend the groups, and people can move to where their spouse is. I have seen this Indian discrimination right in front of my eyes, with educated colleagues, several times. It is extremely ugly and disturbing. Apparently it's 100 times worth with the poorly educated. Additionally, the problem with malnourishment in India are worse than in North Korea, where they actually got on top of it recently. It seems to have been a problem for proportions of the population for about 8 years on and off. In India it's an ongoing issue for half the population, indefinitely.

In Saudi Arabia, half the population - women - cannot leave their own house without a black tent-like outfit covering their entire body, AND a male escort for anything but very mundane trips. Again for a reason that they can't control at all (their gender). In North Korea people can dress more or less as they want, and many women hold leadership positions.
Saudi Arabia incidentally also has a very brutal regime, on par with North Korea for punishing dissidents.

But wait - they are chums with the USA, so forgot all of this paragraph, none of it matters! It's only countries like North Korea who are not chums with the USA that we must worry about!

Additionally North Korea is a developing country that nevertheless teaches Syrians, Pakistanis, Africans and others about nuclear fission, dam construction etc; has 100% literacy; aims to deliver universal healthcare to its entire population and performs well in sports and in science competitions. You really could do a lot worse than that.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I agree that's feudal and seem primitive from a Western society. But at least it means they don't have a slum surrounding the capital city, and people live where they are needed and can be provided for.
However, in India, people are born into a caste, and discriminated against for the rest of their lives, based on something they can't control at all. North Koreans can apparently sometimes descend the groups, and people can move to where their spouse is. I have seen this Indian discrimination right in front of my eyes, with educated colleagues, several times. It is extremely ugly and disturbing. Apparently it's 100 times worth with the poorly educated. Additionally, the problem with malnourishment in India is worse than in North Korea where they actually got on top of it recently - it seems to have been a problem for proportions of the population for about 8 years on and off. In India it's an ongoing issue for half the population, indefinitely.

In Saudi Arabia, half the population - women - cannot leave their own house without a black tent-like outfit covering their entire body, AND a male escort for anything but very mundane trips. In North Korea people can dress more or less as they want, and many women hold leadership positions.
Saudi Arabia incidentally also has a very brutal regime, on par with North Korea for punishing dissidents.

Talking about NK i didn't mean there's nothing same or worse in the world. (the only difference that in india and SA those are the social traditions that last for thousand years while in NK regime is relatively recent)

Originally Posted by Hanna

But wait - they are chums with the USA, so forgot all of this paragraph, none of it matters! It's only countries like North Korea who are not chums with the USA that we must worry about!

That's what i was talking about being a smbdy's bigger ally.


P.S. But we went off topic

Now it seems like USA government not exatly 100% gone rogue ))

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

...... 3. If another country invaded America I would grab a gun and fight for my country. It's awesome here and we don't live anywhere near the urban violence......

Correction - What I said isn't totally true. Yeah, I would fight to defend my country but I wouldn't shoot Russians. That's one war I would refuse to fight.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I agree that's feudal and seem primitive from a Western perspective. But at least it means they don't have a slum surrounding the capital city, and people live where they are needed and can be provided for.

However, in India, people are born into a caste, and discriminated against for the rest of their lives, based on something they can't control at all. North Koreans can apparently sometimes descend the groups, and people can move to where their spouse is. I have seen this Indian discrimination right in front of my eyes, with educated colleagues, several times. It is extremely ugly and disturbing. Apparently it's 100 times worth with the poorly educated. Additionally, the problem with malnourishment in India are worse than in North Korea, where they actually got on top of it recently. It seems to have been a problem for proportions of the population for about 8 years on and off. In India it's an ongoing issue for half the population, indefinitely.

In Saudi Arabia, half the population - women - cannot leave their own house without a black tent-like outfit covering their entire body, AND a male escort for anything but very mundane trips. Again for a reason that they can't control at all (their gender). In North Korea people can dress more or less as they want, and many women hold leadership positions.
Saudi Arabia incidentally also has a very brutal regime, on par with North Korea for punishing dissidents.

But wait - they are chums with the USA, so forgot all of this paragraph, none of it matters! It's only countries like North Korea who are not chums with the USA that we must worry about!

Additionally North Korea is a developing country that nevertheless teaches Syrians, Pakistanis, Africans and others about nuclear fission, dam construction etc; has 100% literacy; aims to deliver universal healthcare to its entire population and performs well in sports and in science competitions. You really could do a lot worse than that.

Thanks for the North Korea links. And you're right. I did notice that friendly countries never get slammed. I always wonder why I never see any news about Saudi Arabia, Uganda, Qatar, India, China, or Pakistan being slammed with tons of sanctions. Maybe they just aren't discussing it in the news or they aren't getting sanctioned. I don't know.
Anyway, I read that Obama is all happy with Poroschenko. I'm not. He was only elected by part of the country, he talks like a neo-Nazi, and he's still shelling citizens. Imo, he's the worst thing that ever happened to Ukraine.
And I didn't decide that from reading propaganda. I decided it from the fact that only 8 million people voted and from the fact that he sent 80 tanks to shell the civilians. Well, if Poroschenko attacks Crimea it will be an act of war against Russia. He doesn't have an army bad enough for that.

Well, if read that NK goverment propaganda blog more thoroughly (which is quite intertaining by itself) you'll notice that they pick anything from the internet where they can find anything they can use (i think they just search by words "korea", "north korean" e.t.c.) and make an article.

So, Strelkov is using North Korean military strategy? Cool. Our military and our CIA both use Chinese military strategy. One of the best sources is Sun Tzu's book, The Art Of War.

The Department of the Army in the United States, through its Command and General Staff College, lists The Art of War as one example of a book that may be kept at a military unit's library.
The Art of War is listed on the Marine Corps Professional Reading Program (formerly known as the Commandant's Reading List). It is recommended reading for all United States Military Intelligence personnel and is required reading for all CIA officers.
According to some authors, the strategy of deception from The Art of War was studied and widely used by the KGB: "I will force the enemy to take our strength for weakness, and our weakness for strength, and thus will turn his strength into weakness". The book is widely cited by KGB officers in charge of disinformation operations in Vladimir Volkoff's novel Le Montage.

In military ops it's very important to understand a lot of different strategies.
The Art of War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point with the North Korea example was that it's not black and white.

It's not "evil". It's a country with a very unique history of being exploited in imperialism, and obliterated in one of the most destructive (to civilian society) wars ever. With a culture of Confuscian reverence to authority and leaders and emperor worship, that has morphed into the Kim Cult. Add to that a genuine zeal for socialist principles, Asian fear of losing face, and the legacy of the Cold War and you get something quite unique.

If you check the links I'll posted, you'll see countless pictures of people who qualify as "middle class" by their standards, who have jobs, live in high rise buildings, or one storey houses, have nice looking clothes, basic conveniences such as fridge and TV, and lately also desktop PCs. Certainly they have enough food to eat, are educated to a good standard and are trying to do develop their country.

American propaganda however would have you believe that any picture from North Korea that is not of a starving person or somebody in a prison camp, is "staged". Even in the metro. Every commuter on his way to work, or school child on his way to school is in a tableau for the tourists. Every North Korean TV program, trade show or visitor to the park is an actor. Seems realistic? Now, the tin-foil hat is apparently appropriate, but not when it's the US state that's under suspicion.

Lately, apparently they have an upper middle class in the larger cities who have similar consumption to an average family in developed countries, like Russia. Mobile phone, microwave, DVD player. They have a domestic cellular network, and trying to develop their own internet. They have things like gaming arcades, beach resorts, water parks and amusement parks.

There is law and order and people don't have to be worried about getting attacked in the street, raped, mugged or kidnapped - a huge problem in large parts of the world.
Everything you need for a decent life is supposed to be available, even though it probably varies a lot as to how that works in practice. Same as in countless other developing countries, but not worse.

Frankly; You could be A LOT worse off in the world today. Sub-saharan Africa! Anyone of the newly "liberated" and extremely dangerous countries in the Middle East, with 60% unemployment; Some banana republic in South/Central America. Gypsies and poor people in Romania, Central Asians who literally must leave their own countries to eat. The majority of the worlds population do not have both running water and electricity. In North Korea, it's the norm to have it, even if the service is apparently shaky.

I am sure they DO have labour camps, and I am sure that anybody who went around cursing the leadership and refusing to be part of the system would end up there. I don't agree with that, and I think they should stop it. But brutal regimes are aplenty in Africa, Central America and the Middle East.

People can also actively decide whether they commit the offenses that could land them in such a camp.
Or they can rise up to overturn the system if they really hate it. It's not like brutal regimes haven't been overthrown by their populations before!
Why should these people be considered less competent than practically all of Europe, Russia, the USA or South America who once, or at multiple times stood up for their rights? It's certainly not our responsibility "liberate" the North Koreans. Let them do what we did, and liberate themselves, if they really want it.

And what about us, today? I would quickly lose my job and be on the street if I didn't play the system (work, keep my mouth shut about certain views, behaved in a civilised manner and followed the law etc). If I made a politically incorrect statement in public, my name would be on the internet and I would be on the scrap heap for employment.

Our welfare states are nearly gone. It's each man or woman for himself. Sure we are better off than North Korea. But only superficially. They have more job security than we have, for one. Obviously it's more demanding to play along with the system there, and a less comfortable life. But there are plenty of places where the average citizen has it a lot worse than the average citizen in North Korea today.

North Koreans can't go on international holidays and they can't buy the latest and greatest gadgets, or surf the internet. And there is a certain amount of class based discrimination going on in the country.

Again: Nothing new! All of these problems, together or separately can be found in other countries. 85% of the world's population can't even afford to travel internationally or buy the latest gadgets anyway! The internet access is still below 50% of the global population.

Therefore I say; Let the people there, and the government sort themselves out. It's got nothing to do with us.

Nothing they do affects anyone outside their borders, and only an imbecil would believe that North Korea wants to start a nuclear war it could never win just because "it's EVIL".

Originally Posted by Hanna

My point with the North Korea example was that it's not black and white.

It's not "evil". It's a country with a very unique history of being exploited in imperialism, and obliterated in one of the most destructive (to civilian society) wars ever. With a culture of Confuscian reverence to authority and leaders and emperor worship, that has morphed into the Kim Cult. Add to that a genuine zeal for socialist principles, Asian fear of losing face, and the legacy of the Cold War and you get something quite unique.

If you check the links I'll posted, you'll see countless pictures of people who qualify as "middle class" by their standards, who have jobs, live in high rise buildings, or one storey houses, have nice looking clothes, basic conveniences such as fridge and TV, and lately also desktop PCs. Certainly they have enough food to eat, are educated to a good standard and are trying to do develop their country.

American propaganda however would have you believe that any picture from North Korea that is not of a starving person or somebody in a prison camp, is "staged". Even in the metro. Every commuter on his way to work, or school child on his way to school is in a tableau for the tourists. Every North Korean TV program, trade show or visitor to the park is an actor. Seems realistic? Now, the tin-foil hat is apparently appropriate, but not when it's the US state that's under suspicion.

Lately, apparently they have an upper middle class in the larger cities who have similar consumption to an average family in developed countries, like Russia. Mobile phone, microwave, DVD player. They have a domestic cellular network, and trying to develop their own internet. They have things like gaming arcades, beach resorts, water parks and amusement parks.

There is law and order and people don't have to be worried about getting attacked in the street, raped, mugged or kidnapped - a huge problem in large parts of the world.
Everything you need for a decent life is supposed to be available, even though it probably varies a lot as to how that works in practice. Same as in countless other developing countries, but not worse.

Frankly; You could be A LOT worse off in the world today. Sub-saharan Africa! Anyone of the newly "liberated" and extremely dangerous countries in the Middle East, with 60% unemployment; Some banana republic in South/Central America. Gypsies and poor people in Romania, Central Asians who literally must leave their own countries to eat. The majority of the worlds population do not have both running water and electricity. In North Korea, it's the norm to have it, even if the service is apparently shaky.

I am sure they DO have labour camps, and I am sure that anybody who went around cursing the leadership and refusing to be part of the system would end up there. I don't agree with that, and I think they should stop it. But brutal regimes are aplenty in Africa, Central America and the Middle East.

People can also actively decide whether they commit the offenses that could land them in such a camp.
Or they can rise up to overturn the system if they really hate it. It's not like brutal regimes haven't been overthrown by their populations before!
Why should these people be considered less competent than practically all of Europe, Russia, the USA or South America who once, or at multiple times stood up for their rights? It's certainly not our responsibility "liberate" the North Koreans. Let them do what we did, and liberate themselves, if they really want it.

And what about us, today? I would quickly lose my job and be on the street if I didn't play the system (work, keep my mouth shut about certain views, behaved in a civilised manner and followed the law etc). If I made a politically incorrect statement in public, my name would be on the internet and I would be on the scrap heap for employment.

Our welfare states are nearly gone. It's each man or woman for himself. Sure we are better off than North Korea. But only superficially. They have more job security than we have, for one. Obviously it's more demanding to play along with the system there, and a less comfortable life. But there are plenty of places where the average citizen has it a lot worse than the average citizen in North Korea today.

North Koreans can't go on international holidays and they can't buy the latest and greatest gadgets, or surf the internet. And there is a certain amount of class based discrimination going on in the country.

Again: Nothing new! All of these problems, together or separately can be found in other countries. 85% of the world's population can't even afford to travel internationally or buy the latest gadgets anyway! The internet access is still below 50% of the global population.

Therefore I say; Let the people there, and the government sort themselves out. It's got nothing to do with us.

Nothing they do affects anyone outside their borders, and only an imbecil would believe that North Korea wants to start a nuclear war it could never win just because "it's EVIL".

You have your speech sounding like Kim Jong 3 dictated it to you word by word. I'm sure he didn't, though. And I know why it has to sound that way. The last time you had a chance to be there, they were still receiving aid from the Soviets. As long as they did, things there roughly looked like you just described. But imagine a poor and totally isolated country that just stopped receiving its last amounts of significant external aid --- that was exactly what they faced at the beginning of the 1990s. And they immediately ran into huge starvation that killed over 5 million people in there (1995). Kim Jong 2 was personally responsible for that, as it was him who declined the UN offers of help, as "they didn't need help from imperialists". After that, the economic situation has been worsening, and the dictatorship has been tightening. Now, I'll tell you why they can't have a PC or a fridge. Even if they are able to buy those devices at a store, they can't make big use of them anyway, as they only have electrical power on for like 3 hours a day! And it's never on after 11 PM. In fact, the country's so closed that they fail to import even their basic needs, e.g. food and water. So they have to totally rely on what they grow, and May & June are traditionally "starving months" there, and the only chance for ordinary people to get food in this period is through the distribution system. Now, the rations look just ridiculously cruel --- 410 g of daily food per a grown-up person! And it's rice mostly.

One can argue that in sub-Saharan Africa or Iraq it's almost THAT bad. But as you correctly stated before, people there at least can leave the place in search for a better one. People of North Korea never had a chance to do that. Escaping from that country alive is pretty much like winning a jackpot.

North Korea did request and accept aid from the UN in 1995. It wasn't a food shortage that killed all those people, it was what happened to the food when it arrived. Apparently some of the food went to the military and the government but the rest was sold to other countries for a profit. 5 or 6 humanitarian groups tried to monitor the food distribution but the malnutrition issues never improved.
I found this in a Harvard Law School paper:
THE NORTH KOREAN FAMINE AND FOOD SHORTAGE:

@ Eric: Have you ever lived in North Korea or do you know anyone who has? I still don't know much about what life is like there but apparently not many people do - except the people that still live there and people who escaped. It would be a lot easier to learn more about North Korea if they didn't have closed borders.

@ Hanna: Thanks for the read about Korea in 1990's. Everything helps.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

It would be a lot easier to learn more about North Korea if they didn't have closed borders.

If they didn't have closed borders half of the population would already be here, in siberia as well as in the rest of russia.

Oh come on....

North Korea's strategic location is absolutely top notch.

Anyone who controlled it would have a LONG border with China. The possibilities are endless....

North Korea's border is only a few miles away from Russia's main pacific fleet harbour in Vladivostok....

And by controlling ALL of the Korean peninsula you also control the main freight routes in and out of Japan.

OF COURSE the USA wants to "liberate" North Korea and bring it some "democracy".

It's getting a bit expensive in China as well. North Korea has 30 million potential sweatshop labourers.... And they don't even drink Coca Cola yet... or wear Nike's and listen to Justin Bieber.

Of course they must be liberated.

The reality is:
The US is a destroyer of nations.

Iraq today (this latest ISIS group is taking over, and the whole country is a mayhem). And they didn't even have any WMDs. But they do have oil, and BP and others are in place, pumping out the oil, while people are dying across the country.
Libya - in total chaos. Under Ghaddafi, they lived in peace, with the best welfare system in Africa.
Syria, the US wanted to take down Bashar al Assad and a third of the country are now refugees almost, children are orphans and women are widows. Peoples houses and property are destroyed.
Ukraine - although other parties were involved, the US was key in bringing about the coup d'etat. Now Ukraine is worse off than ever.
Afghanistan - from the frying pan into the fire with the help of the USA.

.... and these places are just the tip of the iceberg.

What nonsense. Libya blowing up a passenger plane is leaving peaceful?

Pan Am Flight 103 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scott

Originally Posted by Hanna

Oh come on....

North Korea's strategic location is absolutely top notch.

Anyone who controlled it would have a LONG border with China. The possibilities are endless....

North Korea's border is only a few miles away from Russia's main pacific fleet harbour in Vladivostok....

And by controlling ALL of the Korean peninsula you also control the main freight routes in and out of Japan.

OF COURSE the USA wants to "liberate" North Korea and bring it some "democracy".

It's getting a bit expensive in China as well. North Korea has 30 million potential sweatshop labourers.... And they don't even drink Coca Cola yet... or wear Nike's and listen to Justin Bieber.

Of course they must be liberated.

The reality is:
The US is a destroyer of nations.

Iraq today (this latest ISIS group is taking over, and the whole country is a mayhem). And they didn't even have any WMDs. But they do have oil, and BP and others are in place, pumping out the oil, while people are dying across the country.
Libya - in total chaos. Under Ghaddafi, they lived in peace, with the best welfare system in Africa.
Syria, the US wanted to take down Bashar al Assad and a third of the country are now refugees almost, children are orphans and women are widows. Peoples houses and property are destroyed.
Ukraine - although other parties were involved, the US was key in bringing about the coup d'etat. Now Ukraine is worse off than ever.
Afghanistan - from the frying pan into the fire with the help of the USA.

.... and these places are just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by fortheether

What nonsense. Libya blowing up a passenger plane is leaving peaceful?

Pan Am Flight 103 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scott

We all know perfectly WHO controls all those "terrorists".

Originally Posted by RedFox

We all know perfectly WHO controls all those "terrorists".

I believe that you think that you all perfectly know WHO controls all those terrorists, because "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.".Winston Churchill

Originally Posted by Lampada

I believe that you think that you all perfectly know WHO controls all those terrorists, because "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.".Winston Churchill

Yep. Keywords: "the battleship Maine", "Spanish-American War".

U.S. seem to be the only country in the world who opened its geopolitical "games" with a terrorist attack against its own mariners.

I'd say you have summed it up quite well Hanna!

Originally Posted by DDT

I'd say you have summed it up quite well Hanna!

It must be devastating to be American and come to that conclusion.

And it's not my business what happens inside the US, but it seems like the rope is tightening when it comes to free speech and particularly the ability to protest in America.

Gradually more surveillance, censorship (allegedly to protect against terrorists and pedophiles, the "witches" of our era) domestic drones, the PC thought control concept and military equipment to local police is being introduced.
Paranoia or the path to 1984? Do we dare to wait and see?

Same thing in Europe, not far behind the US.
It's a bit like when you put a frog in a pot of water and gradually increase the heat. Because the heat rises slowly, the frog doesn't realise what's going on, and before he knows it he's boiled alive. But if you throw him straight into the boiling water, he'll jump out because he figures out that something is wrong. When the facts are undeniable, it will be too late to do anything about it.

As it is now, only a few can put the pieces together and look at development with a 10 year perspective, instead of 1 week.

I think we're on the way to a fascist dictatorship with meaningless elections, and that we are halfway there already. The US is leading the way, but Europe is not far behind. Europe used to be the creators of political ideas and unique movements. Now, it looks like we are following the pied piper into our own destruction.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It must be devastating to be American and come to that conclusion.

A few years ago a Russian political analyst (I forget his name but I'm sure people here know who I am talking about) predicted that there will be civil war in the USA. Every week now I am more convinced he is right about that. But even worse.......I believe civil war for the USA is even necessary now. US government is a "captured operation" and has been for some time. So yes it is devastating. We will have either civil war or within a few short years the US will not exist as we know it and be blended in with Canada and Mexico. Those people who are still trusting the mainstream news (all of it) will know nothing about all this.

Lampada,

Why is this thread now not in the "Politics" section?


Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

Lampada,

Why is this thread now not in the "Politics" section?


Scott

Посмотри на название раздела, в котором Политика. Это "About Russia".