Thread: Life in our countries - "good, bad and ugly"...

Off-topic from Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

Originally Posted by Юрка

Если говорить об ущербе, который нанёс Сноуден США, то это идеологический ущерб. Западные подростки читали Толкина и думали, что Мордор - это СССР. А теперь получается, что их собственные страны чем-то похожи на Мордор, а Сноден спасается в РФ (то есть в Мордоре). Получается каша в голове, и вся идеологическая обработка подрастающего поколения Запада - коту под хвост. За такое не прощают.
Кстати, символ Мордора - это глаз.
Attachment 858

Опыт показывает, что такой ущерб способен обратить в глину ноги даже, казалось бы, нерушимого колосса.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Если говорить об ущербе, который нанёс Сноуден США, то это идеологический ущерб. Западные подростки читали Толкина и думали, что Мордор - это СССР. А теперь получается, что их собственные страны чем-то похожи на Мордор, а Сноуден спасается в РФ (то есть в Мордоре). Получается путаница, и вся идеологическая обработка подрастающего поколения Запада - коту под хвост. За такое не прощают.
Кстати, символ Мордора - это глаз.
Attachment 858

yes, exactly. They haven't read "The Gulag Archipleago" (too intellectual) but they would believe that the USSR was roughly a mixture of what's portrayed there, in "1984" and on Hollywood thrillers and spy series.


Once in my teens, I mentioned to an English friend that my family had been on a beach holiday in Latvia (SSR), and the girl actually thought that people in the USSR were not allowed to go to the beach, and that only foreigners could do that (or something along those lines). It was so silly that I just didn't know what to respond.

She couldn't believe that there was a pretty decent beach resort that was actually enjoyable to visit, in the Soviet Union. Then she thought it was incredibly grim, i.e. like some kind of prison camp at the beach.

In reality, the standard was the same as in rural beach resorts in Sweden at the time and there were several non USSR people there, Germans, Scandinavians and probably others whose languages I did not recognise at the time. For the reason that the packages were sometimes sold incredibly cheaply.

But according to my friend, such a thing was impossible - nobody could do anything fun in the USSR! Everybody was just suffering...

The other things many people seems to have believed, is that everyone wanted to leave the country. I wouldn't know if that's true, but it's hard to believe that regular people dreamt of leaving. For what?

Plus - who doesn't dream about greener grass somewhere else? In reality life can be hard as an immigrant and in harsh capitalism (i.e USSR --> USA or similar) unless you are used to it.

Talk about effective & successful (incorrect) propaganda! I don't think anyone in the the USSR had such idiotic notions about life the the USA, for instance. Or did you?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't think anyone in the the USSR had such idiotic notions about life the the USA, for instance. Or did you?

When I was a little kid in the early 1980s they used two show homeless people in USA on TV news sleeping on benches in parks covering with newspapers. I thought something like "How lucky I am to born in the country where there are no homeless people. I could be one of them". The bitter irony is that in less than 10 years I could see such things and even worse right in my home town.

Originally Posted by Basil77

When I was a little kid in the early 1980s they used two show homeless people in USA on TV news sleeping on benches in parks covering with newspapers. I thought something like "How lucky I am to born in the country where there are no homeless people. I could be one of them". The bitter irony is that in less than 10 years I could see such things and even worse right in my home town.

true_story.png

Originally Posted by Basil77

When I was a little kid in the early 1980s they used two show homeless people in USA on TV news sleeping on benches in parks covering with newspapers. I thought something like "How lucky I am to born in the country where there are no homeless people. I could be one of them". The bitter irony is that in less than 10 years I could see such things and even worse right in my home town.

И куда эта Единая Россия смотрит? Не может быть хуже, чем в США. Тут больше миллиона бездомных школьников!



Across U.S., a record number of homeless school-age children - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Originally Posted by Lampada

И куда эта Единая Россия смотрит? Не может быть хуже, чем в США. Тут больше миллиона бездомных школьников!



Across U.S., a record number of homeless school-age children - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Может, тут какая-то разница в терминологии? Мне сложно представить и такие цифры, и что бездомные подростки вообще ходят в школу.
Вероятно, речь о ситуации, когда ребенок живет с родителями в трейлере или каком-нибудь временном жилье?

Originally Posted by Basil77

When I was a little kid in the early 1980s they used two show homeless people in USA on TV news sleeping on benches in parks covering with newspapers. I thought something like "How lucky I am to born in the country where there are no homeless people. I could be one of them". The bitter irony is that in less than 10 years I could see such things and even worse right in my home town.

They did that in my country too, so it was not unique for the USSR. And the pictures were real. You don't have to look very hard in the USA to find that, I think.

But you are right, and no doubt, people with a socialist/communist political agenda exaggerated the problems in the USA.
But there IS homelessness in the USA, and there IS/WAS hard for black people (another issue that they made a big fuss over).

I don't approve of propaganda either way. Back then, it was too much of the other side of the coin, I think, and it was tiresome, once you became aware of it.

So I think they should have showed a more nuanced picture back then. At least in Sweden, we had the TV show "Dallas" and a few others. to counterweigh, back in those days.. lol I guess that kind of perspective on the USA was not available in the Sovet Union.

(Just a very schizophrenic view of the USA... and it is a country of huge contrasts really, isn't it. It's very impressive, in so many ways too - and I'm sure it's somewhat easier to become wealthy there)

But, on the other hand: I met lots of Russians in the 1990s, when I happened to be in Israel for a while - they had a totally unrealistic view of the USA and seemed to expect that once they made it there, everything would be fabulous in their lives. Me and some friends tried to warn them, because we thought they'd be better taken care of in Israel. However language problems etc prevented any deep conversation. Even though they officially left the USSR to go to Israel, they were convinced that the USA was much better and were trying to get there...

Originally Posted by Hanna

But, on the other hand: I met lots of Russians in the 1990s, when I happened to be in Israel for a while - they had a totally unrealistic view of the USA and seemed to expect that once they made it there, everything would be fabulous in their lives. Me and some friends tried to warn them, because we thought they'd be better taken care of in Israel. However language problems etc prevented any deep conversation. Even though they officially left the USSR to go to Israel, they were convinced that the USA was much better and were trying to get there...

When I was living in the USSR in 1991, right during its collapse, Russians were enamored with America. They thought it was some kind of great utopia and they had nothing but resentment and bitterness about their own nation's failings. I tried to tell them that America is not really paradise, but no one would listen to me. I can't count the number of times when people would find out I was from the US and their response would be "У вас нет проблем!"

They had a completely unrealistic view of the US, based on all the propaganda we sent out and since at that time Russia's economy was so bad, I guess the US did look pretty attractive. But in the 1980's, the US was already on course for its ultimate demise. Reagan was deregulating the banks, capitalism was allowed to run amok, religious fanaticism was on the upswing with people like Pat Robertson creating religious "universities" to train "future leaders" of America. They were sowing the seeds and now we are reaping a bitter harvest. Unregulated, Wall Street has gambled with our country's economy and rather than being punished, it was bailed out by our failing middle class. The average CEO makes more than 400 times what his employees do, and contrary to conservative economic theories, that profit is not being used to create jobs and it is not going back into the economy. It's being hoarded in overseas banks so that not even taxes can be collected on it. Those religious universities churned out flocks of graduates who have become our politicians, our media representatives, our corporate executives, our military leaders and so on and they are doing everything in their power to turn our country into a theocracy. Some of them even want to help bring about "Armageddon."

I once believed in the American dream, that anyone could become wealthy or famous if they just worked hard enough. But these days it simply isn't true, and frankly I doubt it ever really was true. I worked hard my whole life and never became rich, though I did know what it was like to be famous, at least on a small scale when I worked in TV. Fame is not all it's cracked up to be either. When you are famous, you never know who your real friends are and who just wants to take advantage of you. People are jealous and hurtful and you soon discover that it's a very lonely way to live.

To me it seems that Russia was dangerously enamored with the US to the point where they copied us, and they did such a good job of copying us that in 20 years they will suffer the same fate as we are if they are not careful.

Originally Posted by Deborski

When I was living in the USSR in 1991, right during its collapse, Russians were enamored with America. They thought it was some kind of great utopia and they had nothing but resentment and bitterness about their own nation's failings. I tried to tell them that America is not really paradise, but no one would listen to me. I can't count the number of times when people would find out I was from the US and their response would be "У вас нет проблем!"

They had a completely unrealistic view of the US, based on all the propaganda we sent out and since at that time Russia's economy was so bad, I guess the US did look pretty attractive. But in the 1980's, the US was already on course for its ultimate demise. Reagan was deregulating the banks, capitalism was allowed to run amok, religious fanaticism was on the upswing with people like Pat Robertson creating religious "universities" to train "future leaders" of America. They were sowing the seeds and now we are reaping a bitter harvest. Unregulated, Wall Street has gambled with our country's economy and rather than being punished, it was bailed out by our failing middle class. The average CEO makes more than 400 times what his employees do, and contrary to conservative economic theories, that profit is not being used to create jobs and it is not going back into the economy. It's being hoarded in overseas banks so that not even taxes can be collected on it. Those religious universities churned out flocks of graduates who have become our politicians, our media representatives, our corporate executives, our military leaders and so on and they are doing everything in their power to turn our country into a theocracy. Some of them even want to help bring about "Armageddon."

I once believed in the American dream, that anyone could become wealthy or famous if they just worked hard enough. But these days it simply isn't true, and frankly I doubt it ever really was true. I worked hard my whole life and never became rich, though I did know what it was like to be famous, at least on a small scale when I worked in TV. Fame is not all it's cracked up to be either. When you are famous, you never know who your real friends are and who just wants to take advantage of you. People are jealous and hurtful and you soon discover that it's a very lonely way to live.

To me it seems that Russia was dangerously enamored with the US to the point where they copied us, and they did such a good job of copying us that in 20 years they will suffer the same fate as we are if they are not careful.

Deb, if the government is to regulate business, who's to regulate the government? As history shows, there's no nastier beast than political forces in power running wild... Free world should remain free no matter if that's little or big money you have.

Originally Posted by Deborski

When I was living in the USSR in 1991, right during its collapse, Russians were enamored with America. They thought it was some kind of great utopia and they had nothing but resentment and bitterness about their own nation's failings. I tried to tell them that America is not really paradise, but no one would listen to me. I can't count the number of times when people would find out I was from the US and their response would be "У вас нет проблем!"

They had a completely unrealistic view of the US, based on all the propaganda we sent out and since at that time Russia's economy was so bad, I guess the US did look pretty attractive. But in the 1980's, the US was already on course for its ultimate demise. Reagan was deregulating the banks, capitalism was allowed to run amok, religious fanaticism was on the upswing with people like Pat Robertson creating religious "universities" to train "future leaders" of America. They were sowing the seeds and now we are reaping a bitter harvest. Unregulated, Wall Street has gambled with our country's economy and rather than being punished, it was bailed out by our failing middle class. The average CEO makes more than 400 times what his employees do, and contrary to conservative economic theories, that profit is not being used to create jobs and it is not going back into the economy. It's being hoarded in overseas banks so that not even taxes can be collected on it. Those religious universities churned out flocks of graduates who have become our politicians, our media representatives, our corporate executives, our military leaders and so on and they are doing everything in their power to turn our country into a theocracy. Some of them even want to help bring about "Armageddon."

I once believed in the American dream, that anyone could become wealthy or famous if they just worked hard enough. But these days it simply isn't true, and frankly I doubt it ever really was true. I worked hard my whole life and never became rich, though I did know what it was like to be famous, at least on a small scale when I worked in TV. Fame is not all it's cracked up to be either. When you are famous, you never know who your real friends are and who just wants to take advantage of you. People are jealous and hurtful and you soon discover that it's a very lonely way to live.

To me it seems that Russia was dangerously enamored with the US to the point where they copied us, and they did such a good job of copying us that in 20 years they will suffer the same fate as we are if they are not careful.

This whole comment was ace. Really interesting observations and so well put.
I guess everyone has a schizophrenic view of their own country; a kind of love-hate. But Russians seem to lean more towards the hate side.

Those Russians I met in Israel were just dissing the USSR (new Russia) absolutely non-stop. They didn't really have any specific complaints that I remember (or maybe I just didn't understand it). But they were just convinced that everything was crap, and anywhere was better. But they also seemed a bit lost and stuck to themselves despite others trying to socialise with them. Claimed "nobody understood them". I'll never forget these two good looking Russian guys who sat out all evening, night after night and played Russian famous melodies on the guitar and harmonica. Very dramatic and poetic. Still, they wanted to go to the US.

Remember reading about the Mc Donald's that opened in Moscow in the 80s, and how people queued all day to visit. Even that young I thought "how pathetic". They have so much, and they queue for hours for a lousy cheeseburger from a country that would quite happily blow them to smitherins with a nuke.

So in the 90s I started wondering if I had actually seen the real USSR when I visited there. My dad travelled regularly to the USSR and many other places in Eastern Europe. His standing comment was always that it was absolutely fine, apart from in Russia lots of people lived in terrible housing. So I don't think I saw any fake facades but of course I can't know for sure. And I judged Russia, just like the USA - from films.
Plus, the last time I was there, the kids we met were totally materialistic - in awe of our stuff and incredibly disappointed that we didn't have jeans, jean shirts etc with us (due to school policy). There was 0 ideology for sure. Not surprising the whole country just fell apart a few years later. It seemed that mentally they were no Soviet anymore.

And as for you Deborski, I actually think you have something in common with the experience the Russians have been through. I mean the stuff that's happening to your country. Once an inspiration for many, and liberating many from oppression.. Full of opportunities, and now -- all the things that you are describing. Not satisfied with doing it at home but wanting to spread the junk across the world. And people being too blind to see it or do anything about it. Right now I'm dealing with some really nice American ladies through work, maybe not politically aware, but just nice and decent. It's just terrible to think that people like them are taken for a ride like that both in terms of the foreign policy and what happens internally in their country.

Here in England we still see the results of "the grass is greener" syndrome. Eastern Europeans with good university degrees cram into dinky little flats so they can do nasty jobs at Starbucks and the like, or clean for people. And it's not because there aren't jobs where they come from. At least one participant in this forum strikes me as a the absolutely stereotypical Russia-hating, America-worshipping Eastern European who'd probably be an Ayn Rand & von Mises fan if he was a bit more intellectual.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Talk about effective & successful (incorrect) propaganda! I don't think anyone in the the USSR had such idiotic notions about life the the USA, for instance. Or did you?

Reposting a YouTube video that someone linked here a couple years ago -- it's a short film produced by the CIA as a briefing for President Reagan before his visit to the USSR, and purports to show "What the Soviet Media Say About America." (Keep in mind as you watch that it was not originally produced for the general public or for use in school classrooms -- it was a briefing for the White House. In other words, it's supposed to be "objective, accurate, and balanced," and was not actually intended to be anti-Soviet propaganda -- even if it seems that way.)



Two key quotes:

1:50

CIA NARRATOR: "Since the average Soviet citizen has no alternative source of information about the United States, the Soviet version is probably accepted at face value. The Soviet people, however, seem to be curious about America and impressed by its material success."

8:20

CIA NARRATOR: "When it was suggested to a Moscow TV anchorman that Soviet media distorted information about America," he replied:
SOVIET TV NEWS READER: "I think that we are not distorting news. No, I would disagree with you, because we are showing not only the unemployed, we showed millionaires, we showed their private lives, we showed high society, we showed Miss America."

In fairness, I suppose that the "Miss America" pageant technically counts as a representation of America's middle class -- although this may or may not have been apparent to Soviet viewers.

PS. Don't miss the gibberish Cyrillic at 1:30 -- nice work there, CIA-tards!

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

PS. Don't miss the gibberish Cyrillic at 1:30 -- nice work there, CIA-tards! :fool"

I think it's not a tard kind of guys. That's just a way to outrage someone (a nation in this case) remotely. Americans became skilled in it. It's systematic that's why I'm sure it's cultural and sort of a tradition.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

I think it's not a tard kind of guys. That's just a way to outrage someone (a nation in this case) remotely. Americans became skilled in it. It's systematic that's why I'm sure it's cultural and sort of a tradition.

But this video, as I said, was not made for Russians to watch -- it was made for the viewing of President Reagan and other Americans who didn't know the Russian alphabet.

I solemnly promise you that the CIA is not nearly clever enough to have deliberately put a mistake in a video just for the purpose of outraging Russians more than 20-30 years later. When the CIA manages to find its own ass, that means they're doing an average job. Every once in a while they do a truly outstanding, spectacular job that actually produces correct information and saves lives on both sides, but that's very rare. On average days, it's "successfully located own ass -- mission accomplished!"

PS. Of course, that's just what I would say if I were secretly working for The Company.

PPS. Now I must kill you all.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But this video, as I said, was not made for Russians to watch -- it was made for the viewing of President Reagan and other Americans who didn't know the Russian alphabet.

I know it. I meant they do it for themselves. Like teenagers joke behind somebody's back. If we can't do anything with the USSR, let's specially mangle their language, scoff at their strange names and so on. It's sort of a pitiful rite: we laugh at them, therefore we become stronger.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Reposting a YouTube video that someone linked here a couple years ago -- it's a short film produced by the CIA as a briefing for President Reagan before his visit to the USSR, and purports to show "What the Soviet Media Say About America." (Keep in mind as you watch that it was not originally produced for the general public or for use in school classrooms -- it was a briefing for the White House. In other words, it's supposed to be "objective, accurate, and balanced," and was not actually intended to be anti-Soviet propaganda -- even if it seems that way.)



Two key quotes:

1:50


8:20


In fairness, I suppose that the "Miss America" pageant technically counts as a representation of America's middle class -- although this may or may not have been apparent to Soviet viewers.

PS. Don't miss the gibberish Cyrillic at 1:30 -- nice work there, CIA-tards! :fool"

That is a very interesting video. It causes mixed feelings, but the primary one is, "darn, it doesn't even take freedom of press to be made and shown to the public!" xD The Soviet propaganda failed to dig out any real problem the U.S. had at that point, and instead it was "exposing" the same naive and foolish stereotypes (racism, militarism, the anti-commie policies, etc.) over and over again. I think even most of the Soviets who watched it didn't believe it, as they were starting to learn more about the "evil capitalism" on their own. (whatever it sounds like, that 1.5 mile long line before the Soviet only McDonald's kind of proved that).

Now, was anything like that video, exposing the "America's view on the USSR" broadcasted to the public in the USSR? It seems not, for the Soviet authorities were really afraid of speaking aloud about any hypothetic problem that country might've had, not to mention the real problems they had, that could've easily been exposed. That was the reason anything that diverged from "everything's super awesome in our communist state" was banned from any media sources. If I'm being incorrect here, please share a proof link, anyone. =))

Originally Posted by Eric C.

That is a very interesting video. It causes mixed feelings, but the primary one is, "darn, it doesn't even take freedom of press to be made and shown to the public!" xD The Soviet propaganda failed to dig out any real problem the U.S. had at that point, and instead it was "exposing" the same naive and foolish stereotypes (racism, militarism, the anti-commie policies, etc.) over and over again. I think even most of the Soviets who watched it didn't believe it, as they were starting to learn more about the "evil capitalism" on their own. (whatever it sounds like, that 1.5 mile long line before the Soviet only McDonald's kind of proved that).

Now, was anything like that video, exposing the "America's view on the USSR" broadcasted to the public in the USSR? It seems not, for the Soviet authorities were really afraid of speaking aloud about any hypothetic problem that country might've had, not to mention the real problems they had, that could've easily been exposed. That was the reason anything that diverged from "everything's super awesome in our communist state" was banned from any media sources. If I'm being incorrect here, please share a proof link, anyone. =))

It was all made up, Eric! That was not really Soviet propaganda. It was a White House briefing full of faked stuff.

As for Soviet propaganda about America, didn't you ever read Крокодил? I have a stack of issues dating back to the Brezhnev and Krushchev eras and they actually pointed out the flaws with capitalism fairly accurately. In fact, I was leafing through some of them recently and it struck me that the cartoons in them are still quite relevant today. In fact, maybe especially relevant.

This one, for example about sums up the corruption in DC...




But where America really "out did" the Soviets was in our movies. All the movies like Red Dawn which portrayed Russians with such bad stereotypes that to this day, a majority of Americans still cling to them! In American movies, Russians seem to fit into one of three categories:

1. Evil Russky
2. Cannon Fodder
3. Comic Relief

For more about America's bad stereotypes of Russians, these articles are helpful:

Russian Stereotypes: Western perception of Russia as seen through Russian’s eyes. Part I. | Russian Universe

Representation of Russia(ns) in Western Popular Culture: Klyukvification and Russian Character Types. | Russian Universe


The USSR never created movies with such terrible stereotypes about Americans, at least none that I ever saw. In fact most of their movies were based on literary works or сказки.

American propaganda is the best in the world, but personally that is not a fact I am proud of.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It was all made up, Eric! That was not really Soviet propaganda. It was a White House briefing full of faked stuff.

It wasn't ALL made up or faked. Arguably, it was unfairly selective -- in that more positive discussions of the US in the Soviet media were omitted -- but a "lie of omission" is different from "fakery."

As for Soviet propaganda about America, didn't you ever read Крокодил?
...
This one, for example about sums up the corruption in DC...

Speaking of "lies of admission," I'd say that the Krokodil cartoon is only half-accurate, insofar as it does portray the real problem of corporate cronyism (as represented by the captions "Льготы монополиям" and "для миллионеров").

However, corporate lobbying does not nearly begin to "sum up" the varieties of corruption in DC. Corruption also occurs in populist lobbies representing blue-collar labor and various minority groups; and pork-barrel spending that creates jobs in low-income states by building bridges may be called "corruption" if it turns out that the bridges weren't really needed. But corruption of that type had analogous forms that existed in Soviet politics -- so it was "safer" for Krokodil to focus on a type of political corruption that was more or less unique to America and other Western countries, namely, multi-billion-dollar corporations "buying" special favors from the government.

In short, the Krokodil cartoon is a lot more accurate than, say, the National Lampoon cartoon that portrayed sex-starved Soviet women lining up to buy dildo-vibrators that were made of reinforced concrete and powered by diesel motors. But, at the same time, the Krokodil cartoon presents a somewhat oversimplified picture of the swamp that is DC -- and, more to the point, it simplifies the picture in a "Долой капитализм!" way that reflects the political biases of the editors. (Or, perhaps, the political biases of the bosses who signed the editors' paychecks!).

Originally Posted by Deborski

In American movies, Russians seem to fit into one of three categories:

1. Evil Russky
2. Cannon Fodder
3. Comic Relief

You forgot:

4. Klingons


American scientists predict that by the 24th century, Space-Russians will have evolved
to look like this, and their women will still be sexy, yet dangerous.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Если говорить об ущербе, который нанёс Сноуден США, то это идеологический ущерб. Западные подростки читали Толкина и думали, что Мордор - это СССР. А теперь получается, что их собственные страны чем-то похожи на Мордор, а Сноуден спасается в РФ (то есть в Мордоре). Получается путаница, и вся идеологическая обработка подрастающего поколения Запада - коту под хвост. За такое не прощают.
Кстати, символ Мордора - это глаз.
Attachment 858

Я думаю, что больше людей в Америке сравнивают Мордор с нацистской Германией, чем со Советском Союзе.

Some interesting point of view about the Russian-American relations, with a historical digression etc:
The Vineyard of the Saker: 1993-2013: is the twenty years long "pas de deux" of Russia and the USA coming to an end?
(Liberals will not like it)