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Thread: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

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    Почтенный гражданин Martin Miles's Avatar
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    " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Anyone who knows even a little about the Bible, knows that they sometimes have long geneologies, like A was the father of B and B was the father of C and C was the father of ...and so on. I sometimes wondered, how could they be so sure? Then I remembered, that in Israel then, women were executed for adultery, just as they are in Iran today.

    http://www.lenta.co.il/page/20100701125115
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    Пожалуйста, кто-то скажи мне, есть ли ошибки где-то.

  2. #2
    Hanna
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    How could they be so sure?
    "for the Bible tells me so..."

    in Israel, known for its' objective and unbiased views on Iran...
    --
    That said, I agree with you that it's disgusting that they are considering executing anyone, particularly for something that shouldn't be a criminal offense in the first place. The method is gruesome. They probably intend it mainly as a deterrent.

    I bet there is more to the story though; there must be hundreds of thousands who are unfaithful in their marriages in Iran, and found out! They couldn't possibly kill all of them! Pray for a miracle, she should be let free.

    But on the other hand martin, if I came from a country that regularly executed people from the bottom of society in the electrical chair (barely one step up from stoning them...) while millionaire killers such as OJ walk free then I'd focus on that first, before Iran!

    But these kinds of stories help build up the case that Iran is so nasty that an invasion is needed to solve the human rights problems, get rid those nukes they may or may not have, [+ of course.... help them with their oil and support the nato military support industry...]

    At the end of the day, they actually have a government that took power after a revolution supported by the people. It's what the majority of the people there wanted, however bizarre it may seem. (And who are we to point the finger, really? In Europe, the last person executed for witchcraft was well into the 20th century. And the US has a terrible history with it's black population. At best, we are a few decades ahead of them in that area.)

    There is an Iranian guy who started visiting this forum - Mischa Tal; if you are reading this, what do you think about this?
    PS - this should probably be in the politics section, there is something else about Iran there too, on a similar theme.

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    The method is gruesome. They probably intend it mainly as a deterrent.
    I agree, especially since it seems to be an "official" method of a capital punishment, and not just some mob of people inflicting "justice". Do they have some specially appointed people who throw stones? Bizzare.
    particularly for something that shouldn't be a criminal offense
    From what I could gather she was accused in being somehow involved in the death of her husband (and those lovers were the killers). That is the reason for such a cruel punishment, apparently.

    PS. From what I've heard Iran is one of the freeest countries in its region, especially in the area of women rights (judging by large number of women who are University graduates and have prestigious jobs, like doctors, and some other facts). At least it's the image I had of this country from media coverage.

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу" - заголовок лживый. Не за измену, а за убийство, как написано в самой заметке.
    А заголовок "могут забить камнями за убийство" вызвал бы гораздо меньше эмоций, не так ли?
    В основном безвреден.

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    Почтенный гражданин Misha Tal's Avatar
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    There is an Iranian guy who started visiting this forum - Mischa Tal; if you are reading this, what do you think about this?
    Thanks, Hanna, for handing over the microphone.
    I've already spent a lifetime engaging in quarrel after quarrel over most trivial things like religion or morality. And I just can't get enough of it!
    Anyway, if you are asking, I'll be obliged to answer. Here's my two cents on it:
    1-The whole thing being barbaric.
    I absolutely agree. That doesn't mean that I think death penalty is barbaric in general. I do believe that there are particular cases in which execution is the only meaningful measure to take. But killing people for adultery, that goes way beyond reason.
    Not a single person among those I know approves of it.
    As a matter of incidental interest, what's the difference between this method or that method of execution? Why is stoning so horrible while firing squad is "honorable"? Why should any sane person think that by lethal injection, the victim is "rescued" from the electrical chair? The horror is in death itself. If we are against it, our argument should be directed against execution, rather than it's means.
    2-Islam
    Many Islamic scholars argue that we should stop these things, so as not to contribute to anti-Islamic feeling in the West. There's much to say about that, maybe some other time...
    3-There must be hundreds of thousands who are unfaithful in their marriages in Iran...Pray for a miracle...
    Clever point, and absolutely true. This is the rule: there must be eye witness testimony from four individuals who have seen the couple while engaged in the deed. People often prefer to do it privately, so the four-witnesses condition is not satisfied usually.
    Iranian human rights activists have been busy for quite a while trying to stop this stupid thing. And not in vain altogether.
    4-An invasion is needed
    D'ya think? But I thought you're a pacifist!
    Trouble is that it's easier said than done. I'm sure the Americans wouldn't think twice if it was all that simple. Saddam Hussein was backed by the United States, the Soviets, and most European countries. He tried to do it for eight years. Eight years. Those weapons of mass destruction that Americans couldn't find in Iraq were used against Iran.
    Iran is kinda tough, if I can put it that way.
    5-It's what the majority of people there [i.e. here] wanted.
    Look it up in your history books, I prithee, and you'll find out that the Revolution took place some 30 years ago. Things have changed. What the majority of people here want is vivid through what happened last summer.
    To get back to the topic, I agree that it's horrible, barbaric, etc. And many other Iranians are like-minded.
    "If in the end, Misha, you are destined to lose this game, there is no need for the reason to be cowardice!"

  6. #6
    Hanna
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal
    4-An invasion is needed
    D'ya think? But I thought you're a pacifist!
    Trouble is that it's easier said than done. I'm sure the Americans wouldn't think twice if it was all that simple. Saddam Hussein was backed by the United States, the Soviets, and most European countries. He tried to do it for eight years. Eight years. Those weapons of mass destruction that Americans couldn't find in Iraq were used against Iran.
    Iran is kinda tough, if I can put it that way.
    5-It's what the majority of people there [i.e. here] wanted.
    Look it up in your history books, I prithee, and you'll find out that the Revolution took place some 30 years ago. Things have changed. What the majority of people here want is vivid through what happened last summer.
    To get back to the topic, I agree that it's horrible, barbaric, etc. And many other Iranians are like-minded
    .
    Very interesting response from someone who is obviously qualified to have an opinion on Iran (I am not, really).

    The comment about people changing their minds between 1979 and now makes sense. But I suppose there are big differences between city and countryside, religious and non-religious, rich and poor... Perhaps a truly free election would reveal it; but as Russia found in the 1990, that doesn't necessarily solve all problems either, and in general elections are very prone to manipulation by media, financial interests or even foreign powers. Sometimes elections are won on non-political issues, like some details that people are hung up on which really is quite marginal.

    Just in case you misunderstood me; I do NOT support any invasion of Iran or any other country by Nato! It was irony/sarcasm.

    I was referrring to the media phenomenon that takes place when the US/NATO doesn't like a country...... is that reports of "human rights abuses", corruption and other problems start emerging across Western media. It's on TV news, in papers and everywhere else you look...

    This goes on to the point that regular people believe that there is no NORMAL life in that country at all, just endless suffering among the people, decadent corruption in the leadership and evil plots to attack and undermine the West in that country's military. Plus lots of reports about how brainwashed / fanatical the population is, at least those who support the government.

    Basically such reports are blown out of all proportions. I am sure you read about Iran in Western press, so you know what I mean. I think it's disgusting that they think they have a right to even consider invading Iran. I might change my mind if Iran attacked Israel, but I don't think it would do that; the anti-Israel stance seems to be mostly about (exaggerated) rhetoric.

    The question "Should the US invade Iran" to me is no more justified than: Should Russia invade.... Sri Lanka... or "Should China invade.....Honduras...............?
    Should

    I just don't see that what happens in Iran is anyones business other than the Iranians' or possibly countries bordering Iran. I admire Persian art and architecture and I would like to see people in Iran have a good life, but other than that I have no opinion about it.

    PS - So what's the weather like in the "Axis of Evil" today?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Which country should the USA invade next? VERY funny, check when they put a needle on "North Korea" and "Iran"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vatr8AmM2nA

    Should the USA attack Iran: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3590

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal
    ... Revolution took place some 30 years ago...
    Владимир Высоцкий.
    "Лекция о международном положении..."

    При власти, при деньгах ли, при короне ли —
    Судьба людей швыряет, как котят.
    Ну как мы место шаха проворонили?!
    Нам этого потомки не простят!

    Шах расписался в полном неумении —
    Вот тут его возьми и замени!
    Где взять? У нас любой второй в Туркмении —
    Аятолла, и даже Хомейни.

    Всю жизнь мою в ворота бью рогами как баран,
    А мне бы взять Коран и — в Тегеран!

    В основном безвреден.

  8. #8
    Почтенный гражданин Misha Tal's Avatar
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    PS - So what's the weather like in the "Axis of Evil" today?
    Pretty hot!
    One of the hottest summers I remember in Tehran. Temperature was 45 C yesterday.
    You wear T-shirts, you get a farmer's tan. You wear sleeves, you get baked!
    I like summer, but I prefer cold weather. In Tehran it never gets colder than -10 C, except in far north of the city. Cold weather is one of the most charming things I like about Russia.
    "If in the end, Misha, you are destined to lose this game, there is no need for the reason to be cowardice!"

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Misha, is it possible to wear shorts in Iran?

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    [quote=Vadim Mo]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Misha Tal":l9qt05ek
    ... Revolution took place some 30 years ago...
    Владимир Высоцкий.
    "Лекция о международном положении..."

    При власти, при деньгах ли, при короне ли —
    Судьба людей швыряет, как котят.
    Ну как мы место шаха проворонили?!
    Нам этого потомки не простят!

    Шах расписался в полном неумении —
    Вот тут его возьми и замени!
    Где взять? У нас любой второй в Туркмении —
    Аятолла, и даже Хомейни.

    Всю жизнь мою в ворота бью рогами как баран,
    А мне бы взять Коран и — в Тегеран!

    [/quote:l9qt05ek]
    Last edited by MasterAdmin; May 26th, 2013 at 11:18 AM.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Почтенный гражданин Misha Tal's Avatar
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by deker
    Misha, is it possible to wear shorts in Iran?
    Oh, yes. Of course it is!
    ...but you gotta wear somethin' over it, too.
    "If in the end, Misha, you are destined to lose this game, there is no need for the reason to be cowardice!"

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal
    Quote Originally Posted by deker
    Misha, is it possible to wear shorts in Iran?
    Oh, yes. Of course it is!
    ...but you gotta wear somethin' over it, too.
    Er.. Was it a joke?

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
    Quote Originally Posted by Misha Tal
    Quote Originally Posted by deker
    Misha, is it possible to wear shorts in Iran?
    Oh, yes. Of course it is!
    ...but you gotta wear somethin' over it, too.
    Er.. Was it a joke?
    Я думаю, что нет. Шорты можно носить, но... под брюками.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    А что будет, если европеец приедет в Иран и станет разгуливать в шортах? Не под брюками, а так, как он привык это делать дома?
    В основном безвреден.

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada
    Я думаю, что нет. Шорты можно носить, но... под брюками.
    Я так и поняла.

    А сами иранцы поддерживают эти традиции в одежде? Не бывает ли разговоров: "Жаль, что нельзя шорты одеть, такая жара..."? Действительно ли мужчина в шортах кажется обычному иранцу легкомысленно одетым?

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    За неуважение к обычаям и законам в каждой отдельной стране можно загреметь в тюрьму. И не только в Иране, а даже в Мексике.
    Вот, например:
    http://vivirlatino.com/2009/01/19/kiss- ... mexico.php
    http://www.jsyk.com/2010/06/15/kissing- ... ome-teens/
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-E ... ou-in-jail


    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/36891 Одежды из шёлка и золото мужчинам нельзя носить.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkviluY0G3g
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada
    За неуважение к обычаям и законам в каждой отдельной стране можно загреметь в тюрьму.
    Пусть так. Но тогда и не стоит возмущаться или удивляться запрету на строительство минаретов в Швейцарии или борьбе французского правительства с ношением паранджи.
    В каждой стране свои традиции.

    Вообще, безумно интересно читать, что пишет Misha Tal. Ведь мусульманский мир для многих это терра инкогнита. Есть и предрассудки в отношении него и неоправданные страхи.
    В основном безвреден.

  18. #18
    Hanna
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    I think Irans' dress regulations are less strict than Saudi Arabia for example.
    Almost all people in most moslem countries cover up a bit!

    Saudi Arabia also executes people in gruesome ways, and chops the hands off thieves!

    I guess the problem with reforming the system in Iran is that Islam is not an ideology, like Communism for example; so they couldn't have like "perestroika" in Iran.

    It's probably all or nothing situation... The nature of religion is that you have to believe, and then if you do, you'll quite voluntarily want to adhere to the rules. I feel a bit like that with certain Christian values.

    I got interested in this and searched for pics of "Iranian people fashion" and found:





    Compare with Saudis! These ladies are certainly doing the best they can with a "challenging fashion situation."
    )

    I think I've heard that shorts are not allowed in islam but I am not sure.

    Personally I had to wear a quite long skirt and longish blouse at school because it happened to be one of the few Christian schools in the country. Guys could not wear shorts or jeans, other than on Saturdays hehe.. But I really did not see any of that as a huge problem...


    PS --- I read something saying that Chechnya is practically turning into a moslem country where moslem laws are applied. Does anyone know anything about this?

  19. #19
    Hanna
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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Mischa ---- I am really curious:

    What would you and your friends like to happen, politically in Iran?

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    Re: " Иранку могут забить до смерти камнями за измену мужу"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna
    Mischa ---- I am really curious:

    What would you and your friends like to happen, politically in Iran?
    This question to Misha makes me nervious. Hanna don't we know that Internet is not such a secure or safe place?

    This is a great book: http://www.amazon.com/Reset-Iran-Turkey ... 0805091270

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMex7rgHSVc

    Yesterday Stephen Kinzer was on Charlie Rose: http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11110

    http://www.charlierose.com/view/intervi ... #frame_top

    "...
    STEPHEN KINZER: First of all I approach it with this idea that we need some new thinking. Second, I believe part of that has to be more cooperative relationships with our friends this that region.

    Then you get to the question, who would they be? Who are the logical partners for the U.S. not over next week and next month but over decades in the Middle East?

    I think Turkey and Iran are logical long-term partners in the Muslim Middle East for two reasons. I think when you’re looking for partners you’re looking for countries that fulfill two criteria. One is you want countries whose long-term strategic goals are somewhat similar to your own.

    But it’s not good enough to just have relations between governments and ruling elites. The peoples of nations have to be involved if you want relations to be stable. And therefore, the other thing you look for is a
    partner is a country that has a society something like yours.

    Now, I’ve been to Saudi Arabia while I was researching this book. Saudi Arabian society is nothing like our society. Women are not allowed to drive and dating is illegal.

    CHARLIE ROSE: That may be changing.

    STEPHEN KINZER: Absolute monarchy.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Some of that is changing.

    STEPHEN KINZER: Now, Turkey is a pretty easy sell despite recent problems as a long-term partner for the U.S. Iran is a little bit more counterintuitive because of everything we’ve been told.

    But if you leave your emotions and stereotypes outside the room and shape your foreign policy according to what I think should be our basis which is what’s good for us --

    CHARLIE ROSE: OK, but take a look at Iran. They are standing in the way of some kind of settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian issue. That is not in our interest. It is in our national security interest, General Petraeus and everybody else has said, to see that issue settled. Iran doesn’t want to see it settled, and it is supporting other people who have a stake in the game, Hamas being one.

    STEPHEN KINZER: It’s not only that. Iran is interfering --

    CHARLIE ROSE: Providing them weapons and everything else.

    STEPHEN KINZER: -- Iran’s interference in other places, in Lebanon, in Iraq.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Hezbollah, exactly. Therefore, what are you suggesting that the United States ought to do about those issues so that Iran does not practice those policies?

    STEPHEN KINZER: When you hook at a map of the Middle East, the first thing that jumps out at you is Iran is the big country right in the middle.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Look at its neighbors and what borders it has and you quickly get how important it is.

    STEPHEN KINZER: Exactly. So we are seeing by the mischief that Iran is perpetrating in that region how destabilizing it can be. But there’s a flip side to that, which is that if Iran felt it was in its interest, Iran could help resolve those problems.

    CHARLIE ROSE: That is my question, though. How do you make it in Iran’s interest? How do we make that case? And why isn’t Iran responsive whatever case we may be making? The president says he wants to engage with Iran.

    STEPHEN KINZER: He does. But actually the policy toward Iran has not really changed that much from the last year --

    CHARLIE ROSE: What’s wrong with a policy towards Iran that says don’t, don’t develop a nuclear weapon or a nuclear weapon capability?

    STEPHEN KINZER: That’s a goal that Iran should not have nuclear weapons. I share that goal. I’m terrified of that.

    CHARLIE ROSE: That’s what the administration’s policy is about.

    STEPHEN KINZER: Because it’s not getting us to the result. We’ve had five years of not negotiating with Iran. In those five years the centrifuges have increased tenfold.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Agreed. But that’s because when they make agreements, those agreements are not being adhered to and there are all kinds of programs that are taking place that are secretive.

    STEPHEN KINZER: You’re right. The lack of transparency in the Iranian nuclear program is the key problem. Meanwhile at the same time they’re testing ballistic missiles. This is very disturbing if not terrifying.

    CHARLIE ROSE: What policy could have gotten them not to do that?

    STEPHEN KINZER: I still think that the option we have never tried is to say to Iran what we said to China in the 1970s. I’ve gone back to read that Shanghai communique. That was the first document we signed with China. And that was a brilliant idea for how to start a relationship with a country that’s been out in the cold for a long time.

    It doesn’t contain any agreements. That came later. All it is, is three sections. The first section was written by the Chinese side, everything we don’t like about America and what America does. Second side we wrote it, what we don’t like about China. And the third section just says we agree to negotiate on all these issues.

    If we go to Iran and say we only want to negotiate on the nuclear issue, there’s no incentive for Iran to do that. If we open up the agenda maybe there is a chance.

    CHARLIE ROSE: Why do you think the agenda has not been opened up?

    STEPHEN KINZER: First of all, I don’t think we have gotten to the point where we recognize Iran’s importance.

    CHARLIE ROSE: The president said that in his statements.

    STEPHEN KINZER: Yes, his policies are not reflecting the fact that none of our strategic goals in the Middle East can be achieved without Iran or over Iran’s objections.

    CHARLIE ROSE: I think the administration does recognize it needs to have, or it will be well served by a positive relationship with Iran, because it wants Iran to stop doing the things it’s doing. ..."
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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