So, here in the U.S. there has been a lot of controversy about sexuality... Whether it be acceptance, equal rights, gay-marriage, etc. I was just curious. How is this topic, or how are homosexuals, treated in Russia and other slavic areas?
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So, here in the U.S. there has been a lot of controversy about sexuality... Whether it be acceptance, equal rights, gay-marriage, etc. I was just curious. How is this topic, or how are homosexuals, treated in Russia and other slavic areas?
As far as my gay Russian friend in Moscow tells me, very badly, apparently there's very little acceptance, and there are a lot of thugs in Moscow who would attack someone for being gay. (He's still in the closet for that exact reason.)
I have no idea to what extent that's true, and I don't know about the rest of Russia.
I've heard that it's pretty frowned upon in the cities and that's why I ask. I also hear there are certain streets that are common grounds for gay people to meet, and gay clubs, but nothing too abstract to be noticed.
Society tends to be tolerant to the very fact of someone being gay, but intolerant to gay publicity. Homosexuality is considered to be a deformity, but not a crime. Public propaganda of homosexuality is definitely not welcome. One can not get any special privileges (like quotas) for being gay.
That's pretty intense! Kind of upsetting (just based off of how much more open minded americans are -not saying everyone is open minded though-)
There're plenty of them in show-business or fashion industry. There are bars, clubs, etc. Gays are not openly discriminated, but ignored by the majority and generally, nobody cares about whom you sleep with. It is a personal matter, after all, and not to be brought to people's attention. Gay marriages are not legal, well, this doesn't mean two gays can't live together, etc, but legally, they're not bound by any legal obligations (matters concerning inheritance, for example). There's a family legislation in Russia which explicitly states that marriage is a social union of a man and a woman. Official church, though technically it is separated from the state, but nonetheless having a rather substantial support from the government, strongly opposes homosexuality.
Generally, if you're a gay and you don't wear some extravagant clothing nobody will even know it, right? Some gay mannerism might be noticed and cause a few eyebrows to raise, but that's about all of the reaction you'd get.
The whole idea of affirmative action doesn't sit well with me, because it shouldn't be needed. So I don't think anyone should have "special privileges" for their sexuality, or for any reason other than their own merit.
The problem with people being "intolerant to gay publicity", as you put it, is that more often than not what this really translates into is that when they a straight couple kissing intensely on TV, they're perfectly fine with their kids watching it, and yet they see a gay couple doing so much as holding hands and they're suddenly "morally outraged". The other thing is how immensely paranoid some people can be - there are even some people who believe in some sort of a "homosexual agenda" where gay people are trying to turn us all into homos, which is plainly absurd.
It genuinely boggles my mind how people can have any reaction other than "oh, OK then" to someone else's sexuality. The only time someone else's sexuality would bother me is if it was a girl I was interested in and she turned out to be a lesbian. (In which case I would say "whew! lucky escape there!" because all women are evil. But we'll leave that story for another time ;))
Yes, but what's wrong with a kid watching a straight couple kissing? The more the better I'd say.
I did say that somewhere, but I'll repeat -- nobody will succeed in turning you to homo if you're straight, but I object when children are told that being gay is 'being special' (all young people want to be special and sometimes they even invent things) or even 'being normal' (homosexuality is not, strictly speaking, normal). It is important that children are told that being straight is normal. They should be told that if a boy likes a girl it's normal, but when a boy likes a boy he might be... well, mistaken.
I can only repeat -- if you don't plan to have sex with the person you speak with, is there really any need telling him or her about your sexual preferences or be interested in his (hers)?Quote:
It genuinely boggles my mind how people can have any reaction other than "oh, OK then" to someone else's sexuality.
As an aside, from a Central European viewpoint it's interesting to see Americans described as open-minded in regard to sexuality (not talking about individuals here, of course, but society and government, media etc.). In our viewpoint it's probably difficult to find any place in the Western world which is more repressed in that regard.
>homosexuality is not, strictly speaking, normal
I am left-handed, which also is not, strictly speaking, normal. I also have been gifted with languages. I am the only person I know who speaks more than one language. Guess I'm doubly abnormal.
And what did I mean, to your mind? :/
I don't doubt I had no chance to get into the 'defective' way of thinking after viewing whatever number of 'gay pride movies', cuz I do believe the laws of nature (which hint me to search for a subject whose glands produce female sex hormones) are way stronger than the perverted human mind (which suggests that I consider each hole as a port to connect my device). That's it.
A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1,500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.
Biologically speaking, straight males should logically be more tolerant towards male homosexuality than female homosexuality. Male homosexuality takes males out of the gene-pool, which, from the point of view of a straight male, can only be a good thing. Female homosexuality, on the other hand, means there are less straight females to choose from when selecting a potential partner. (And vice-versa... straight females should be more tolerant towards lesbians than gay men. Again, I have generally found that the exact opposite is true - some women I have spoken to think that gay guys are "cute" but find lesbianism disgusting. I think the reason society as a whole seems to find lesbianism more acceptable than male homosexuality is that men tend to be more aggressive and vocal in their homophobic beliefs.)
AAAH! FREEEAK! We should lock you up and put you in a cage and poke you with sticks! :p
Biologically speaking alpha male can take whichever female he likes without asking her opinion. And she takes it as a due. At least among primates this kind of behavior is typical. On the other hand she will not annoy him when he is not in mood, which is a positive side. :D
Agreed.
Hmm... I doubt gut worms care much about orphans. But according to Darvinism they arose long before humans.
There is another theory about homoSX, which agrees well with Occam's razor:
"Каждый может ошибиться, - сказал ежик, слезая с кактуса."
I don't really understand why there is even a debate being made. It still really confuses me when I realize that there are people in the world who still "give a shit" about that sort of thing. I don't find it amusing or interesting at all...
Here's an interesting article I noticed today in the BBC: BBC - Earth - Are there any homosexual animals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufACYI3_UI8
Animals In Love | Season 1 Episode 1 | Full Episode
Published on Feb 1, 2015 - Animals In Love
For centuries it was thought that animals did not share the same emotions as us but new science is starting to change that view.
Liz Bonnin sets out to explore the complex and diverse relationships that animals have and asks whether animals love.
Typical attitude towards gays in Russia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CmGQ7fmIlc
Let's just say, Russia is still not ready for gay people...
I was in Vladimir a couple of weeks ago where I stayed in a hostel for three nights. One night I talked to two other guests, two Russian women from Moscow, both probably in their late 20s or early 30s. One had been in western Europe, and began talking about what she especially disliked about it: the fact that there are so many - openly - homosexual couples. This was followed by long monologues by both women about how awful геи (gays) really are, and how happy they were to live in Russia where there are not that many (their words).
Understandably, I quickly lost interest in speaking with them, and found another place in the hostel to sit. Ten minutes later the owner of the hostel walked up to me, and told me that he had overheard the conversation between me and the women. He seemed genuinely sorry and wanted to excuse his fellow Russians, explaining that the women were simple and did not know what they were talking about. I was happy to hear that the negative attitude towards homosexual people was not shared by all Russians - at least for a minute. However, I soon realised that he wanted to say sorry simply because I was not supposed to hear what they had told me. "They don't meet many European people, they don't know that we can not say directly to European people that we hate homosexuals," and he then continued explaining that he, however, agrees totally with the women, and further described homosexuals as being some of the worst scum on earth.
This is not meant to be generalisation - all Russian do not hate or dislike homosexuals. It is simply a funny story, albeit tragic and disturbing.
Я из англии. Я бисексуал и я не люблю что путин думает об гомосексуализм. Но в России, гомосексуализм легальный. В другой страны наши политики любят, (Саудовской Арабия, украине,) для гомосексуалисты очень плохо, хуже чем в россии. Я думаю НАТО и Америка хотят война с Россия и в говорят об России и Путине больше чем в других страны.
Извините для мой плохой русский язык!
Что говорит гаишник на видео??? плохо слышно...
The quaint Pindostani custom of "tipping" can be useful for expressing неодобрение ("disapproval") in situations like that. E.g., if your bill comes to $19.95, you give the hostel-owner exactly $20, and then say, "Oh, but I absolutely insist that you keep the change -- это тебе "бакшиш" -- go buy yourself something nice, and have a WONDERFUL day!" :-?
Ещё тактики, при встрече с гомофобией от русских:
1) Naive Absurdism: "Извините, добрый сэр, а мне чем-то странновато да удивительно, что у вас в России так враждебно обращаются с геями! Ведь в Америке известно ВСЕМ, что гомосексуалисты были изобретёны ВАШИМИ советскими технологами ещё в 1957 году, в целях того, чтобы подрывать основы западного общества, распространять безбожие, и при том ускорять погиб капитализма. Точно так же, как ЦРУ изобрело абстрактную живопись, чтобы отпугивать и деморализовать советских шпионов, и англичане изобрели сарказм, чтобы путать иностранцев."
(Excuse me, dear sir, but I find it somehow strange and surprising that people in Russia treat gays with such hostility! After all, it's universally known in America that homosexuals were invented by SOVIET scientists back in 1957, as part of a plan to undermine Western society, spread godlessness, and hasten the collapse of capitalism. Just as the CIA invented abstract painting to frighten and demoralize Soviet spies, and the British invented sarcasm in order to confuse foreigners.)
2) Implicit Appeal to Their Sense of Personal Shame and National Pride: "Ну, всё-таки, когда МОЙ БРАТ И ЕГО МУЖ посетили Россию два года назад, они просто влюбились в красоту страны, и очень сердечно рассказывали нам об очаровательном гостеприимстве русского народа."
(Nevertheless, when MY BROTHER AND HIS HUSBAND visited Russia two years ago, they utterly fell in love with the country's beauty, and warmly described the charming hospitality of the Russian people.)
3) Out-Chauvinize the Chauvinist: "Спасибо вам, за полезную информацию о российском обществе! Знаете, мой брат и его муж давно мечтают посетить Россию -- а я обязательно им посоветую, что вообще геям лучше бы в какую-либо страну поболее вестернизированную, типа Папуа Новая Гвинея, или Афганистан, к примеру."
(Thank you for the helpful information about Russian society! You know, my brother and his husband have long been dreaming about a visit to Russia, but I'll definitely advise them that gays are better off going to a country that's slightly more Westernized -- maybe someplace like, I dunno, Papua New Guinea, or Afghanistan.):mosking:
Turning to a more serious tone: Для ЛГБТ-Сообщества в США, сейчас наступает значительное пятидесятилетие. Четвёртого июля 1965 г. произошла первая в Америке "гей-манифестация", на площади в Филадельфии рядом с историчным домом, где раз подписали Декларацию Независимости. Участвовали лишь 20-30 активистов -- все одетые на офис, скромно и порядочно.
Attachment 1184
Следует отметить, что в то время, "мужеложство" осталось уголовным преступлением во 49 штатах, за изключением Иллинойса. (В действительности, крайне редко сажали кого-нибудь в тюрьму, а самое существование этих запретов очень часто служило сомнительным предлогом для дискриминации против гомосексуалистов -- "Ведь они смеяются над законом" [анг. - "to be a scofflaw"]).
Спустя четыре года, на улицах Нью-Йорка внезапно возникли так-наз. "Стоунвальские Бунты", в ответе на частое полийцейское издевательство над посетителями гей-баров. Сотни людей присоединились к беспорядкам, и в итоге арестовали несколько десятков. В следующом году, на годовшину бунта и тоже в Нью-Йорке, не меньше чем две тысячи геев участвовали в более или менее порядочный парад, под знаменем "Gay Pride." И вот теперь, в данный момент наш Верховный суд рассматривает вопрос: существует ли в самом деле какое-то "основное Конституцонное право" на однополый брак?
Всё это получилось, за лишь полвека! Значит, едва удивительно, что в России народ боится "выпустить из бутылки гей-джина".
Джин уже выпущен. Кто-то, может быть, хочет этого не замечать, но в России уже давно этот джин выпущен и давно идёт этот же процесс.
Он как раз отстаёт на эти лет 50. Не более. Уголовного преследования уже давно нет. В эстраде много открытых и полуоткрытых геев.
Закон о запрете пропаганды гомосексуализма среди несовершеннолетних в точности копирует Section 28 Британских 80-ых (да да, 30 лет отставания).
It is all the same and heads in the same direction.
Более того, я лично прогнозирую, что процесс пройдёт быстрее, т.к. есть примеры, на кого равняться.
И вот очень плохо, что в этих примерах есть негативные черты, когда де-факто получается, что у геев больше прав, чем у обычных людей - это вот как раз отталкивает. Поменьше бы ТАКИХ примеров.
P.S.
А Путин... Путин тут заложник демократии. Он не может взять и разрешить всё в обществе, которое не готово. Это катастрофическая потеря голосов. С другой стороны, он уже никогда не вернёт уголовное преследование - это уже тоже недопустимо. Так что он балансирует. Как бы и гей-парад официально не разрешить, чтобы не развязать волну уличных конфликтов, и не подставить гей-сообщество под эдакий конкретный удар, что всех пришлось бы наказывать - нет нет нет. Надо тонко так, взять аналог Section 28, чтобы была формальная причина не допускать события, заручиться голосами и так далее. Но и паника, что закон будет применяться налево и направо - тоже из разряда преувеличений - цель тут другая. Не допустить перекосов.
А мне кажется, что в России стараются изо всех сил чтобы запереть джина пробкой, выбросить штопор, и наконец спрятать самую бутылку внутрь утки, и её внутрь зайца, и того внутрь кованого сундука...
But maybe the expression "let the genie out of the bottle" has different meanings in English and Russian? Говоря по-английски об отношении русского обществе к гомосекскуализму, я мог бы смешать два выражения, вот так: "The cat is already out of the bag, but the genie is still in the bottle." "To let the cat out of the bag" = "раскрыть секрет" (первоначально в смысле "раскрыть обман нечестного продавца" который продал кому-н. резанного поросёнка, а незаметно в сумку всунул дохлую кошку).
However, I agree with Alex80's general points.
Да нет, уже давно видно что именно что джинн выпущен - свершился перелом, когда официально и по закону явление перестало быть негативным. И уже не будет негативным. Всё. Общество рано или поздно поставлено перед фактом, что за избиение гея в подворотне придётся отвечать по закону. Полицейские в машине на видео выше уже не негодуют и гневаются, а смеются. Открытый гей вызвал не гнев, а смех. Дальше за смехом - пренебрежение, а дальше за пренебрежением - признание.
Процесс запущен.
А "Section 28" по российски что это такое - это формальная причина не допустить гей-парада. Там ключевая фраза "среди несовершеннолетних". В клубе со входом "18+" открыто признано - никто не запрещает, собсно уже понятно из самой формулировки - разрешает. Т.к. уличная демонстрация может вовлечь невольных зрителей-несовершеннолетних - то это отличный формальный повод.
Сколько уже закон существует? Повсеместных гонений на геев при этом не наблюдается. Да потому что не в этом цель.
А ведь на самом деле, если будет попытка провести гей-парад выйдут тысячи "недовольных" и начнут забрасывать камнями. А правительству это надо? А обществу, если разобраться?
Да, придётся геям подождать в России с парадами. Но ведь не парады цель на самом деле. Цель - само признание. А процент активных гей-ненавистников снижается.
Alex80
Да мы пытались уже это объяснить сто раз, но интуристы не понимают. Видимо, 30 лет форы - большой срок...