Thread: Are Russians too conservative?

Originally Posted by SAn

We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes.

Idiots are free to do anything in any place.

I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?

Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?
If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant.

All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English. That refers to having a set of values that are socially acceptable.... People who don't conform to these opinions are generally hung out in media, or considered strange by others. I do not agree with some of this, but I generally keep that to myself.

Example of political correct values right now:

• Homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality, homosexuals should have all the same rights and be able to be open about their relationships. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Men and women are the same in every way and traditional gender roles are wrong..[/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Skin colour is irrelevant. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Democracy (per Western definition) is the only acceptable form of government.. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• All religions are ok, apart from strict Islam or fundamentalist Christianity. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Capitalism is right, but there should be some protection for the people who are not able to cope in a capitalist society, i.e. people who cannot find a job, or people who are victims of unfortunate circumstances. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Be paranoid about islamist terrorists! They hate us and want to kill us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Be paranoid about peadophiles... They might snatch your child! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Be paranoid about Iran, North Korea... (axis of evil) might nuke us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Because of the above objects of paranoia and to protect people from them... it should be allowed to spy on people who are potential terrorists and detain them without trial... Also because of this, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are acceptable. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
• Be mildly concerned about human rights and lack of democracy in Russia, China etc... +be a little bit concerned about anything that the Russian army does...[/*:m:8mev4g1k]

+some more.

So Russia falls a bit short on a few of these.. (meaning that it does not live up to some of these ideals) But Russia has a different perspective, and different experiences! Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc? And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint? You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?

Originally Posted by Оля

Idiots are free to do anything in any place.

I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?

И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру.

Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.

Originally Posted by SAn

И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру.

Лучше бы уж назвал. Знаешь, во всяком общении, включая и общение на форуме, существуют определённые рамки, или это уже не общение, а базар. Я считаю, что каждый имеет право на свои собственные представления о том, что смешно, а что нет, поэтому не комментировал твои предыдущие посты, хотя чувство юмора у тебя, ИМХО, очень
своеобразное. Но твоя последняя "острота", это уже не просто моветон, а вообще полный финиш - дальше уже ехать некуда, что называется. Так что извини, если я тебя оскорбил, но я остаюсь при своём мнении и своих слов назад не возьму.

Originally Posted by SAn

Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.

Ну... раз так, тогда вот:



:"": :"": :"":

Кончайте базар! Всем дружить!

Originally Posted by Lampada

Кончайте базар! Всем дружить!

... в тряпочку!

(Типа еще один юморист...)

Самые консервативные в современной Руси - это ряженые нагаечники. У них даже телесные наказания есть.
(только вы меня не выдавайте, а то поймают и высекут )

Originally Posted by starrysky

Thanks for the insight, Croc.

You're most welcome, Ma-starrysky.

Originally Posted by SAn

Russians are free in comparison with Americans:

• We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to rasism.[/*:m:2r0ur5hw]

Go to prison? Don't be f***ing ridiculous, dude.

The Negroes would strip the meat from your bones with their razor-sharp teeth (after first paralyzing you with the fast-acting neurotoxins in their poison glands) before the police could even think about arresting you.

Originally Posted by SAn

Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better?

Are you serious or joking here, SAn? 'Cause it's a strange question. Would answers like, "because we are all human beings, all in one boat, so treat others as you would like to be treated", ring a bell with you?

Originally Posted by Johanna

Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?
If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant.
...
All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English.
...
Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc? And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint? You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?

Rrrright. I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji.

Regarding the right to criticize... or absence thereof... It's a valid point but the attitude "моя хата с краю, ничего не знаю" is never going to work now. The international community, the EU officials/observers are always worried now about what's going on in all parts of the world, be it the arrest of generals in Turkey or military coup in some African country; and anxious to promote democracy, impose Western values, equal rights for men and women and so on.

As I said, I wouldn't worry if it wasn't just one person voicing this opinion about Russia but it seems to come up quite often so that's why I got curious if it has any foundation.

All right, when in doubt, go to Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know it's notoriously unreliable):

Racism
Racism in Russia
Racism in Europe

In May 2006, Amnesty International reported that racially motivated killings in Russia were "out of control" and that at least 28 people were killed in 2005.[1]In 2006, Amnesty International registered 252 victims of racist crimes, of which 21 died. In February 2007, President Vladimir Putin asked the Federal Security Service to combat racism,[2] but hate crimes still increased. From January 1 to July 31, 2007, Amnesty International registered 310 victims of neo-Nazi and racist crimes in Russia; 37 of those victims died as a result of attacks. Amnesty International criticize Russian police for not doing enough to combat racist crimes, and for often ignoring reports from civilians about threats and crimes.[3] According to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, from January to March, 2008, 49 people were killed in assaults by radical nationalists, 28 of them in the greater Moscow area, and an estimated 118 people in total were killed in the whole of 2008. However, it is worth noting that the Moscow Human Rights Bureau focuses almost exclusively on victims of ethnic minority backgrounds, therefore a number of racist attacks on ethnic Russians may go unreported.

The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5]. The director of the Human Rights Bureau, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.[6]

Bleak outlook, ain't it?

Originally Posted by starrysky

The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5].

Bleh.. I checked the sources 4 and 5.
#4 says "According to Semyon Charny of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, there are an estimated 70,000 skinheads in Russia".
#5 states that "there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total".
Wikipedia decided to add 15 thousands more just to be on the safe side. Well done.

So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know. The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000.

I wonder how many Nazis/skinheads in Russia for real. I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life, while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them. Are there any reliable sources?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

..I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life..

So am I. I saw them only on TV.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them.

No you do not remember correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.

Though I was called once to witness in a skinhead case.

Originally Posted by mishau_

No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.

Ha-ha, sorry. It was an educated guess.
Well, let's say that there was someone who had an opposing point of view. )

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total").

"There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics."

(Or, "in the original Klingon" : Ложь, проклятая ложь, и статистика.)

Often attributed to Mark Twain, but although Twain loved the quote and helped popularize it, he himself gave credit to Disraeli. But the witticism can't be found in any of Disraeli's published writings, and the real author is probably the celebrated Mr. A. Nonymous.

Anyway, "half of the world's neo-Nazis are in Russia" reminds me of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" -- it's a pseudo-statistic based on [s:vm9v5vqm]sloppy[/s:vm9v5vqm] "creative" methodology, and therefore a type of lie -- but arguably a "noble lie", since the purpose is to shame one's countrymen into self-improvement. In other words, it's a form of national self-criticism, which is why statistics of this type are widely repeated without skepticism-- people understand them to be a moral challenge, and not an attack.

P.S. Some skeptics have pointed out that the widespread popularity of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" in TV news reports and newspaper editorials probably tells us nothing useful about the actual state of geographic education in the U.S., but does prove beyond the smallest doubt that most American journalists flunked "Statistical Analysis 101"!

Originally Posted by starrysky

I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji.

(Removed my shoes first.) Namaste, Ma-starrysky. (And gave a gift with my two hands to the eldest woman of your house.) I would hope we'd be moving somewhere in either of the threads. And yours is in English, so don't worry - by no means you steal my thunder. (And even if you do, I care for it as much as Ramil . )

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by mishau_

No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.

It was an educated guess.

Yes, it was an anecdotal case.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know. The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000.

OK, I know I'm a real "тормоз" in replying to this but I hear there's an upsurge of hate crimes in connection with the recent bombings. Not just towards Muslims but just people with swarthy skin. I don't care how many skinheads there are exactly, it seems that the rate of crimes is high enough. It irritates the heck out of me that such "уроды" even exist. Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally? I remember gRomoZeka getting all riled up about cameras in supermarkets and the whole paranoia stuff. Well, here we have people dying and being beaten on a regular basis and no one seems to care. This problem doesn't touch me personally either (as long as I don't marry an Asian-looking guy, for example). But the mere fact that such things happen!

Originally Posted by starrysky

Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally?

I agree with you, but it's a rhetoric question, isn't it?